How do you create rhythmically 'loose' verse melodies

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Annoying Twit

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« on: September 04, 2015, 07:11:42 PM »
One thing I can't do is create verse melodies that sound 'loose' rhythmically. Mine are too regimented, too 'straight'. Classic verse melodies like Elton John's 'Sorry Seems to be the Hardest Word', 'Your Song', The Beatles 'Another Girl', 'Something', etc. They don't sound syncopated to me, just that the rhythm is 'loose' in some way. It's not simple and straightforward as chorus melodies often are.

EDIT: Mercy Street by Peter Gabriel is another example. But, many songs have verses like that. Mine seem to come out too 'normal'.

Erm, I hope I've described what I mean well enough. So, how does one create melodies like that?

Having posted, and now in editing hindsight mode, maybe I need to be buying sheet music and analysing.

EDIT: Now that I've posted I'm working out what I should say (see username for explanation). Verses in a lot of great songs don't seem to 'get anywhere', they sound unresolved. I just naturally seem to resolve every phrase. How can I avoid this? Unstable tones at the end of melodic phrases?

EDIT (yet again): I just tried playing really inconsequential widdling notes on a keyboard, and then recorded them into my DAW. I then put a simple diatonic chord sequence behind them. Hey presto! they sound like a verse. ... There has to be a more consciously controlled way of doing it than this.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 07:44:10 PM by Annoying Twit »

Paulski

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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2015, 08:02:54 PM »
Don't know if this helps, but I think sentence structure has something to do with it. If you look at the first two verses of "Something":

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Something in the way she moves
Attracts me like no other lover

one of the reasons line one doesn't sound resolved is because it is not an entire sentence. And of course it goes to the maj7th at the end of line one which can sound unresolved on its own accord.

Paul

Annoying Twit

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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2015, 10:42:25 PM »
Thank you very much for your reply, I gave it a go and tried this chord sequence:

C / / / Am7 / / / FM7 / / / F6  / / / C / / / Am7 / / / FM7 / / / F6 / / / / F / / / G7 / / / Am / Asus4 /

This definitely felt unfinished at the end. (Originally I had the FM7 ending the phrase, but then I added the F6 which , but I added the extra bit to make a full verse. I tried to steal the vocal rhythm from the 'Something' lines you quoted, but with a different melody. Though, the phrases got a bit longer when I played them. The melody ends on a D, and over the Asus4 the whole thing sounds like it wants to resolve somewhere, so it's not finished.

It still sounds like corny rhythm me. And not loose enough. I'm not saying your advice isn't good, just that I have difficulty applying it. One thing is that my partner doesn't like me singing in the house, so I'm playing a keyboard. What is coming out sounds like over-simple lyrical instrumental music not a vocal. I'll try singing over the same chord sequence when I can.

Annoying Twit

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2015, 08:53:47 AM »
Bit tumbleweedy in this thread :) But, part of what seems to be causing the problem is that my own melodies seem to start on even quarter notes, while some of the melodies I've mentioned will start phrases on eighth notes. E.g. Elton John's 'Your Song''s verse melody starts one eighth note rest into the bar.

Boydie

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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2015, 09:53:45 AM »
I am not sure how you write but the cause of this issue is often when you write whilst playing an instrument at the same time

This can sometimes encourage you to fit the melody "to the chords"

If you record your chord sequence first and THEN try out melody ideas you may find that you are able to come up with "looser" melodies that go "across" chord changes and that don't always start on the first beat of the bar
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Annoying Twit

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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2015, 12:21:46 PM »
Thanks for the advice.

I've just tried writing some music to pre-existing lyrics while (clumsily) playing a guitar at the same time. I'm definitely doing what you say, creating short phrases that don't overlap chord changes.

I'll try coming up with some chord changes separately and singing over the top. I'm also going to work out where my phrases start ahead of time, and put some sort of indicator sound there to prompt me. Otherwise I'll naturally gravitate to too obvious phrase starting and ending points.

Doodles

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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2015, 12:22:55 PM »
That's a great point from Boydie.

Collaborating with a vocalist that doesn't play an instrument can help 'detatch' the melody from the instrumentation and give a 'more free', 'looser' feel. I think it takes a conscious effort for a musician to take a step away and come back with a melody that doesn't follow the inherent patterns of the music... whereas a pure vocalist will just sing.... sometimes spreading one line over several bars to good effect or flying off in a direction you wouldn't even consider.

Also I find doing the whole thing myself can be suprisingly draining. A collaborator can inject fresh energy, dynamism and chemistry that makes the song sound less predictable and routine. 

That said, some vocalists do just follow the patterns in the music, it depends who you find.

 




Annoying Twit

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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2015, 08:47:34 AM »
I'm not sure where I can find a vocalist that I could collaborate that closely with. I think that people who can really sing probably have many potential collaborators wanting to work with them, and I don't think I yet bring enough to the table for that. I have a collaboration ongoing with a singer, but he's busy, and it will probably be on the scale of months before we get one track done. So, I need to keep working and improving in the meantime.

I've been looking at chords for Rutles songs this morning (Beatles pastiche songs written by Monty Python associate, among other things, Neil Innes). I've noted that even on the early songs, there are quite rich chord choices plus key changes. But, part of what makes those songs really good, IMHO, is the interaction of the chord changes with the words. Some of the phrases are quite long, with chord changes happening on individual words. So, my aim for today sometime is to write chords and melody for the following lyrics:

Quote
Sing a phrase that lasts through several different chords
And change a chord on some of the more important words
The phrasing long and slow and on the chord changes go
Will make a simple melody better, as we all should know

I think it's obvious what I'm trying to do there. Note: those lyrics are not for critique, I'm still waiting for my two weeks to be up after my last post for critique before posting something new. This is just an exercise. I'm hoping to get some Beatles style non-diatonic harmony in there, e.g. secondary dominants.

diademgrove

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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2015, 10:12:29 AM »
You could try writing out the melody on paper. This would allow you to place some of the notes around the beat rather than directly on it. It may sound a bit too mathematical but it gives you chance to experiment. If you then record the midi notes into your DAW you could hear how it sounds. You could then move the notes both the pitch and the rhythm to see what happens.

Hope this helps,

Keith

Annoying Twit

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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2015, 11:17:49 AM »
Thanks very much for the reply (and to everyone else too).

I was thinking of recording myself speaking the lyrics out against a drum pattern with no instrumentation. That would give me the chance to work out where the notes should go before I try to assign chords and melody.

Sometimes when I try and write like this, what comes out sounds too mechanical. But, it seems that some of the 'perspiration' work that I'm doing finds its way eventually into the 'inspiration' work when I try to make up a song naturally.

diademgrove

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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2015, 04:18:15 PM »
Thanks very much for the reply (and to everyone else too).

I was thinking of recording myself speaking the lyrics out against a drum pattern with no instrumentation. That would give me the chance to work out where the notes should go before I try to assign chords and melody.

Sometimes when I try and write like this, what comes out sounds too mechanical. But, it seems that some of the 'perspiration' work that I'm doing finds its way eventually into the 'inspiration' work when I try to make up a song naturally.

If I did this I'd end up singing/speaking rhythmically with the drums, couldn't help myself. Maybe something to avoid if you want the singing to be around the beat. I'd also concentrate on the rhythm rather then the singing so I'd lose what control I have over pitch, emotion, etc.

Just some potential pit falls when you come to record yourself. Hope you find what you're looking for.

tone

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« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2015, 06:56:14 PM »
I'm gonna chip in here with a wee thought/ observation.

The difference between a 'written' melody and the way a singer delivers it can be quite large, certainly in terms of its perceived 'looseness'.

A quick glance at the Beatles songbook will yield many examples. If the melody was written out exactly as performed, it would be an unreadable mess. Rests, dots, tied notes etc everywhere. Instead, it's been transcribed to the nearest quarter/ dotted note.

The rest is what I like to think of as vocal phrasing. And that comes from being a singer. Being comfortable with the way your voice works, and delivering a conversational/ natural rhythm in your singing. Paul Simon's 'You can call me Al' is a brilliant example of this. Listen to the way he sings the first line. I'm willing to bet my brand new underpants that he wrote that lyric before deciding on the rhythm of how that line should be sung. Similarly, 'If you'll be my bodyguard' sound much more like a lyric written to fit a tune.

The more closely you listen to your favourite songs, the more you'll absorb what's going on, and be able to bring it to your own songs.

Good thread this, thanks for sharing :)
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Annoying Twit

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« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2015, 09:21:48 PM »
Good point. I work on getting songs written, rather than optimising them. Perhaps if I spent more time on finishing them.

In terms of vocal interpretation, the rhythm can change quite a bit. I'm thinking of covers such as Ray Charles' version of Let it Be, where the vocal rhythm (and to a degree the melody) is quite different from the original. Am I allowed to post links in this forum?
EDIT: Ray Charles does an even more interpreted version of John Lennon's 'Imagine'.

Surprisingly Joe Cocker's version of She Came in Through the Bathroom Window seems to stick relatively closer to the original rhythm.

Billy Joel's 'Just The Way You Are' is another one with a particular vocal rhythm which may have been 'delivered' from a simpler original.

I've been listening to songs for many decades now, I'm far from young. But, over and above listening, it seems that more analytical listening is really helpful.

EDIT: I wrote music for the above lyrics. At first my phrasing was such that phrases naturally broke on chord changes. I redid the rhythm to take twice the length for the verse, and got the chord changes within phrases. The rhythm was too straight, so I moved phrases by an eighth, and then turned the rhythm into a melody. It sounds like the melodies I always write. It's going to take quite some work to find out how to break out of that.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 07:10:04 AM by Annoying Twit »