Mixing and mastering question

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Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« on: July 25, 2015, 07:22:39 AM »
I've been working on a remix of one of my songs from last year. There were some doubts voiced about the song and the instrumentation in particular, which is more a personal thing I suppose. But there was no doubt that the mix was BAD.

So, I've addressed a few of the issues that were raised, and now I have a question for the experts out there.

For the first time I've managed to make the song LOUD using a limiter and was shocked at the fatness and uniformity of the waveform. Does this mean that I have compressed the living daylights out of it?

Any answers and help would be appreciated. And of course any suggestions will be taken on board.

https://soundcloud.com/cramer1930/girl-in-a-yellow-dress-remix

Thanks.

Ian
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seriousfun

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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 07:31:47 AM »
Sort of, but you are confusing the function of a limiter with that of a compressor.

Compressors function by reducing the difference between the quiet parts of the track and the loud parts of the track by applying a reduction ratio on the output in proportion to the strength of the signal. They actually reduce the average volume by doing this but in the process, the also give back a lot more headroom. This then allows you to increase the output gain and this is where the increase in overall volume comes from.

Limiters on the other hand, stop the clipping of the peaks in your track but dont do any compressing as such. Compressors are often used on individual tracks as well as on the master to glue the whole track together and allow more gain for a louder mix. In mastering the last step in the chain should be a limiter to catch any transients or peaks that have slipped through.

Hope that helps answer your question.

Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2015, 12:50:05 PM »
Hey Thanks Allan.

Yes I did get something from your reply. It's something that I find hard to be interested in so when I read about it it's just words going past without much actually getting in, but I do get the feeling that I am slowly getting to a point where it will eventually click. Your description of the compressor function is very good and helpful....thank you.

It's a bit like learning a foreign language where at first you understand so little that you can sit in a crowded bar and it all just washes over you....you tune it out in fact. Then when you finally start to learn a few words and actually are able to listen, little things start to click and understanding comes....slowly....that's how I feel at the moment....still waiting for that lightbulb flash but a little bit more confident that it's just around the corner.

My biggest concern is deadening the dynamic of the song too much and my system and ears make it difficult for me to judge.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 12:59:26 PM by Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra »
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2015, 01:27:01 PM »
I'm still very new to all this stuff as well, but I've found some of the best info and advice I've seen so far on productionadvice.co.uk really good website
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Boydie

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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2015, 05:04:36 PM »
Actually a limited IS a compressor

I do plan to write up a simple guide to compressors (I am playing with ideas for that book I have in me!)

Whilst I am having a break from eating, drinking, swimming and sunbathing on my hols in Spain (first time I have done all inclusive and I have eaten sooooooo much  ;D) here is how I would explain them...

COMPRESSORS

These do appear a little mysterious but here is a good way to think about them...

All they are is a "second pair of hands" that controls the volume level of a track

Imagine you had an "imaginary mixing assistant" and you wanted them to control the volume of a kick drum track because some of the hits are really loud and some of the hits are really soft - and in your song you want them to be a little more even, but you still want the loud ones to be "louder" (to provide an accent) and the soft ones to be softer - but more audible

So if you were to ask your imaginary friend to control the volume of this track - what kind of things would you need to tell them?

Let's deal with the loud hits first...

The first thing would be to tell them how loud you want the loud hits - ie exactly which hits are too loud - ie at what point should your imaginary assistant "duck" the volume of the loud bits

In "compressor speak" this is the "threshold" - the level of volume after which the volume is turned down


Your "imaginary friend" would also need to know how much you want the volume turned down for the hits that go above the level you have set (ie the hits above the "threshold")

In "compressor speak" this is called the "ratio", expressed as ##:##

Eg a ratio of 3:1 means that for every 3dB the signal goes above the level you have decided (the threshold) only 1dB will be allowed to pass by the compressor

This is a relatively gentle compression ratio (bearing in mind 1:1 would be no compression) so it should sound quite "gentle"

2:1 is a good ratio to bear in mind as for every 2dB the signal goes above the threshold only 1 dB will be allowed to pass by the compressor - so the dynamic range of anything above the threshold will be halved

A ratio of 12:1 would be a more severe compression and the signal will be reduced by a far greater amount

So the ratio could be described as the "severity" of the compressor


What else would you need to tell your imaginary friend?

How about how quickly you want them to reduced the volume and when you want the volume returned to normal?

The first decision is how quickly you want the hit turned down - eg you may want the very very first bit of the "too loud" kick to be its normal volume so it cuts through the mix but you then want the main "weight" of the kick turned down (according to the "threshold" and "ratio" settings you have already set)

In "compressor speak" this is called the "attack" setting and it allows you to decide how quickly you want the compressor to "do its thing"


What if our imaginary friend turned the volume down for the loud one but we may want it back to normal in time for the next one - eg in our example the loud beat might me quickly followed by a "medium" beat that we are happy with so we don't want the compressor to do anything to this one

In "compressor speak" this is the "release" control and it sets the time until the compressor releases its control on the signal and let's it return to normal


The reduction of volume caused by the compressor is called "Gain Reduction"

Most compressors have some kind of gain reduction meter so you see the compressor working so you can see when it is actually working and how much gain reduction is being applied


So let's put all of this together to look at the real life considerations for setting up a compressor for our example, which is:

A kick drum track with some hits too loud, some hits too quiet and some hits just right (Goldilocks would have loved it!)

We need to set the level at which we "feed" the compressor to determine how hard it needs to work and the level of the signal that the compressor "sees"

In "compressor speak" this is the "input gain"

We then need to set the "threshold" at a level that where the loud kicks go over the threshold and the medium (and quiet) ones stay under the threshold so that they are not affected by the compressor

We then need to set the "ratio" control to determine how much the loud ones are pulled back, the "attack time" to decide how quickly the compressor will start to act and the "release" control to ensure the compressor is only reducing the loud hits and not the ones following it (eg even if a medium hit was below the threshold, if it quickly followed a loud hit the compressor may still be acting on the loud one when the medium one comes along!)

This will have reduced the overall volume of the track because the loud signals are being reduced (eg the high "spikes" on the waveform would have been pulled down)

This then gives us room to turn the whole track up, therefore making the quiet kicks louder

In "compressor speak" this is the "make-up gain"

In the real world this will usually involve juggling the controls and carefully watching the gain reduction meter, to get the desired effect (which is probably what you have been doing anyway) but hopefully now you will understand what the controls do so it should speed up the process or help you get the sound you want

By reducing the volume of the "loud parts" and increasing the volume of the "quiet parts" you are reducing the dynamic range of your track

This is dangerous as your mind will often interpret "louder" as "better" - especially on an initial listen

However, a heavily compressed track can be really fatiguing ( and boring) to listen to - and of course the artistic nature of a track will be affected by a lack of dynamics

A compressor can also make a mix "pump" if the volume reductions and severe and become noticeable

This can sound really bad but is also used as a creative effect - especially if the compressor is controlled by another source - eg a string pad has a compressor on it controlled by the kick track - this is called "side chain compression" but we will save that discussion for another day!


So what is a LIMITER then?

A limiter is basically a compressor with a really high ratio so that anything that goes above the threshold is drastically reduced in volume

A "brick wall limiter" will not let anything past the threshold

So....

If you set a limiter on your master bus you can tell it to not let anything past 0db to prevent clipping (in practice most people use -0.3db to give a safety margin)

This not only helps keep clipping at bay but it will also protect your speakers!

You can then increase the "input gain" until the limiter starts working and decide how much you want to limit (ie "super compress") your mix

Limiters usually have very quick attack and release times so they can catch quick spikes in volume (transients) without affecting the rest of the signal/track/song


Compressors tend to be used with Lower ratios (5:1 or less) and are used for subtler or creative dynamic control


Different compressors call the controls I have described different things, and not all compressors have all of the controls, but once you get your head around what does what you should be fine if you have understood what I have said


This is all from the top of my head sitting in a hotel room whilst the family are having a siesta so I hope it helps

Boydie

« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 05:23:19 PM by Boydie »
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seriousfun

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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2015, 05:30:17 PM »
Nice post Boydie, you obviously have more time on your hands than I.

Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2015, 06:33:44 PM »
Well thanks for the detailed info Boydie. As I said I'm getting slight glimmers of hope that I'll become completely fluent in the subject one day. I'll try to wholly digest what you've written.

So then another brief question (bearing in mind that I'm an idiot).

From what I've read, and because I'm wary of it and don't know what I'm doing, I've been careful not to compress things too hard on the individual tracks.

Then I stick the limiter on the master with my safety margin as you said....then I crank it up to get a decent LOUD track like everybody else gets. So am I not then super-compressing the hell out of it in the process? Or are the quick attack and release times stopping it from doing too much damage? I'm a bit confused about that I must say.

Anyway thanks for the help and hope you're enjoying the sun and the great Spanish food.
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Boydie

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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2015, 09:28:42 PM »
I am loving the sun and especially the food - I have also just discovered that cocktails are included in the "all inclusive" so I hope the following makes sense  ::)


Quote
Then I stick the limiter on the master with my safety margin as you said....then I crank it up to get a decent LOUD track like everybody else gets. So am I not then super-compressing the hell out of it in the process? Or are the quick attack and release times stopping it from doing too much damage? I'm a bit confused about that I must say.

The "right" answer is - it depends what it sounds like (I obviously can't listen properly at the moment)

However, the useful answer is to check the "gain reduction" meter on your limiter to see how much it is compressing the mix

If the meter is occasionally flashing a few dBs every now and again I would say you are fine as it is probably just taming some harsh transients - eg snare drums, percussion etc.

If it is always on and working a lot then that is an indication you may be going too far with it

It also depends on your mixing and mastering process

I like to do some multiband compression during my mastering and I also use compression when mixing so I tend to use a lighter limiter

If you are just whacking a limiter on to get a commercial volume level you might need a bit more

A good ballpark figure I often hear is 3dB of gain reduction although it will always depend on the material


Another final check is to look at your waveform

I had some great advice once about the final mix waveform...

It should look like jaggedy bacon and not like a big smooth sausage


People with a little knowledge can be dangerous and an easy "criticism" to make of any mix is "oh - it sounds over compressed" as very few people can actually determine whether this is right or not - and it is often like the emperor's new clothes

The bottom line is - if it sounds like you want it to sound then that is "right" - you might want a really "pop" sounding compressed mix that has been limited to the nth degree
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Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2015, 05:17:54 PM »
Funnily enough, last night before you posted this I did go back and mess around with the limiter doing precisely what you say. I was getting about 7db more before it started to compress so i figured I'd go a bit higher than that but not push it too far just because i could! After all I'm not after mind-blowing loud...I just don't want it to be feeble after whoever listens moves onto it from the last track they've listened to.

I think that I might actually now understand better what I'm doing limiter-wise........compression itself on individual tracks (and multi-band compressor on the master) will have to be studied more!

Thanks for taking the time out to help Boydie.

Just posting this has forced me to try harder to understand, so it was worth it!
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Boydie

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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2015, 05:40:43 PM »
I am glad it is starting to click

I would just concentrate on understanding my posts in this thread until you "get it" - it is a long post but not a book (yet  ;))

The bit I didn't mention was that if you want to get your mix to more commercial volume levels you are looking to get the final master meters bouncing around the "red" - ie around 0dB

Setting the limiter to -0.3dB is a good trick to get "near enough" and still have a tiny bit of margin

Seeing some movement in the master meters is also a good check that the song still has some dynamics

If the meters are just constantly in the red, pinned at at 0.3dBs, then this is a good sign you are overusing the limiter - and you will end up with a "sausage waveform"

We are currently talking about the "peak" levels of the mix, which can give you a good feel for the loudness by looking at how often the meters go high

However, the "loudness" of a mix is perceived over time so there are other ways to measure "loudness" (such as RMS) but I wouldn't worry about this yet


My advice would be to separate your "mixing" and "mastering"

For mixing you should be aiming to get your master level meters bouncing around -9dB to -6dB

If this sounds too quiet turn your monitoring up  ;)

This will then leave you plenty of "headroom" (the difference between your mix level and 0dB) for your mastering

When you use compressors or limiters always try to compare a "before & after" where you match volume levels so you can actually hear whether you compressing has improved the sound by avoiding the "it sounds louder so must be better" trap

If your compressor or limiter doesn't have an automatic "volume compensation bypass mode" you can turn the compressor on and off and match the volume using the "make up gain" control - once you are happy you can use the make up gain or fader when mixing to set the volume where you want it
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adamfarr

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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2015, 09:20:09 PM »
Write that book pronto I would say - can I pre-order it now? But in the meantime what a great and useful thread this is... Gracias!

Boydie

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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2015, 10:01:32 PM »
De nada
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MartiMedia

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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2015, 11:59:28 PM »
Completely agree with this theory Boydie, thanks for sharing and enjoy your holidays!! MM
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