[creativemind]

Hi!

Just asking for advice here on arrangement. I write good songs I feel on acoustic guitar and then record them into software on my computer. I then sometimes ruin them with strings and bass and drums sometimes.

Can anyone link me to any good sites that could help here, or advise me on what is good to do here. I'm writing indie tracks and pop songs.

Strings - would people play a string chord in a high octave or just a one note melody.
Bass Lines - how do you know what is the best bass line to fit you particular track. The right one can really improve things.
Drums - how do you know what's the best drum pattern to compliment the song. Do you just go by ear or go with what comes naturally?

Thanks!

[tone]

Hey CreativeMind

Damn, that's a big question. Arrangement is one of those things you never stop learning, and for me it begins with *really* listening to your favourite records. And by really listen, I mean listen with a critical ear. I used to *really* listen to all my favourite records, but it wasn't until I began producing my own recordings that I stopped and actually analysed those records. And what I finally heard totally changed the way I approached recording.

To break it down, here's a quick answer to each of your questions. Drums I usually base on my acoustic guitar strumming pattern. If it's a fingerpicked song, or played on piano, I'll try and pick out the natural accents for the kick & snare. Sometimes just playing around with loops will give you something unexpected and brilliant. So that's always worth trying.

Bass: rule of thumb (which I really enjoy breaking) is that the bass should follow the rhythm of the kick drum. If you lay down the bass first, there's your kick drum pattern. Bass notes generally revolve around the root of your chords, but it can get boring if you don't explore further, so play with arpeggios, and some ascending/ descending runs for maximum impact. Also, don't forget to vary the note lengths else it can get a bit boring down there.

Strings: these are hard. I certainly wouldn't play a chord in a high register as that will likely sound fake, thin and nasty. When writing string parts, it helps a lot to know a bit about the instruments. Your string section consists of Double Bass, Cello, Viola & Violin. Each has its own role, and its own range, and its own 'sweet spot'. If you study string scores, you'll notice that there's usually quite a lot of vertical space between the 4 instruments. So for example, your Double Bass might be playing C2, your cello C3 or 4, your viola G4 and your violins E5 - this will give you that big, epic string sound you're probably looking for. If you're planning on having the strings play a melody, a good trick is to split the violins into octaves, and then use the remaining instruments to fill out the harmony & rhythm. Also, avoid 'footballs' - this video will explain

Another thing worth bearing in mind. If you want your song to sound 'big' you need to plan your arrangement accordingly. If there's not enough in the bass or the treble, it won't likely sound big. If all your parts are played in the same register (C3-C4 for example) your song will sound thin and cramped. Try to avoid playing too much over the main vocal - instead, use the gaps in between phrases to bring out your arrangement details. If you search the web for song production tips or music production advice, or similar, you'll find more content than you can possibly digest. It's a long journey, and the best way to learn is by doing. So as long as you allow yourself to experiment, get it wrong sometimes, and keep at it, you'll get there in your own time.

Hope some of that helps - and good luck!

[Boydie]

Here is how I would approach things...

WRITE your song using your acoustic guitar and decide on the arrangement, tempo, etc.

Then loop your software to repeat 2 bars and put a simple hi hat beat on every beat (so in 4/4 you will have 8 steady beat)

I MUCH prefer a hi hat beat over a metronome click - I just find it gives a more natural feel and relaxes me a bit more

For the genres you mention I would suggest putting a Kick drum hit on every 1st and 3rd beat and then a snare (or clap) on every 2nd and 4th beat

You should now have a pretty rigid beat going - and this is my favourite bit...

Turn off any "snap" or "quantise" settings and slightly move the hits to introduce some "groove" to suit your particular song

I would be conservative with the kick drum but experiment with an "early" and "late" snare and listen to how much it changes the feel of the track

When you have the basic groove set now try putting in some extra kicks and snares at a reduced velocity to introduce some movement to your groove

Finally, add some variation to the hi hats - the key here is to change velocities to prevent them sounding like machine guns and more like a real drummer (eg emphasise some notes)

Once you have a good "2 bar groove" going copy and paste it for the length of your project and record your guitar along with it

I would now record your bass line and take TONE's advice about listening to your favourite songs to see what they do

The main bass options are:

1 - hit the root notes of the chords you are playing and match the kick drum pattern

2 - as 1 but add "passing notes" - eg play the note below and then move to the root note

3 - play a "bass line melody" or "pattern" - this will be more like a tune on its own (eg "Billie Jean" or "Living On A Prayer") where the bass line establishes the groove and feel of the track

4 - a combination of the above!


The key point is to "lock in" your kick and bass to drive the track to your liking - this doesn't mean they always have to hit at the same time but they should hit together at the points where you want the song to "pulse"


I would then record the vocals to ensure that the song sounds "complete"

You can then use your string section to "embellish" the track and fill spaces between vocal lines


I hope this helps give you nudge in the right direction

Feel free to ask any questions - we will try to help...

[Sing4me88]

I have to say I found the responses of Boydie and Tone immensely useful as a lyricist that is slowly starting to dip my toe in the musical deep water that is outside my comfort zone. Lately I've only realised the enormity of what it takes to write a whole song much less one fit for pitching as commercially consumable by the masses! Once you've cracked one element you have to move on and crack another but get it to marry to the previous and set up the next; get a great topline, get a great chord progression, get a great drum track, get a great bass line, get a great instrumental melody/hook playing over chords and under vocal. That's even before production kicks in - that is surely a dark art using which synths for which part, which drums etc as the wrong choice can really date a song and make it 'nice' but not commercial.

I'm hoping to glean from your responses as I navigate through the miasma of imbibing basic theory and having a practical trial and error play around. Who knows I just might have a self-written song (or one I've had more musical input into at least) for you all to hear one of these days - whether it will be any good is another matter

[Sing4me88]

Great advice but bass lines have always kinda baffled me which is a shame because I am a real sucker for bass lines. I'm trying to assimilate all Boydies great advice but have a few things I'd like clarifying; so if I loop a basic beat Kick 1st/3rd beat and clap/snare/cymbal etc on 2nd/4th and have to match my bass line to the rhythm of the kick drum does that 1) mean I'll only bass on the second and fourth beat? 2)  will I have to match the beat by playing a single bass note for that beat or can I mix it up and half one bass note on 1st beat and 2 shorter bass notes on 3rd beat 3) in terms of playing notes above root note do you mean playing the other notes in the chord so for example on a chord that lasts for a whole bar (1 whole note) would I play a c2 ecah on 1st and 3rd beat or could I play a c2 on 1st beat and a shorter g1 and e2 or could I even play any notes in that whole range?

[Boydie]

so if I loop a basic beat Kick 1st/3rd beat and clap/snare/cymbal etc on 2nd/4th and have to match my bass line to the rhythm of the kick drum does that 1) mean I'll only bass on the second and fourth beat? 2)  will I have to match the beat by playing a single bass note for that beat or can I mix it up and half one bass note on 1st beat and 2 shorter bass notes on 3rd beat

At its simplest you would have the kick drum on the 1 and 3 so to get maximum "power" in your track you would make sure your bass line also hit on the 1 and 3

However, this would be powerful but quite boring

From what you have said about being a "bass line junkie" I would recommend laying down the basic groove of the drums and then play a more "melodic" bass line, bearing in mind the main priority is getting the rhythm and groove right - rather than a complex melody

I would suggest studying how well "Billie Jean" works as you get to hear the drum beat first - which is a straight kick on the 1 & 3 with snare on the 2 & 4

The bass line then plays a groovy as hell melodic line - but listen how it accents the beat of the kick drum, even though it plays many more notes - listen to how "locked in" it is

Imagine if the kick drum and bass were hitting on different beats - the whole "weight" of the track would be lost

This often happens when people use loops - they find a drum loop and put it with another bass loop but they just don't lock together and sometimes the accents fall in completely different places, which ruins the groove of the track - and without a strong foundation the rest of the track will never come together as well as it could

For example - on your latest track (Happy Never After) you have established a great "pulse" with the kick drum and snare ie "boom boom  ba chick) if your bass line does not echo this you will be missing an opportunity - I am currently just hearing the "boom boom" stabs, which is not very groovy (IMHO)

I would be happy to record some different bass lines over this track to show you different possible approaches (as well as some intentionally "wrong" ones to show what I mean)

in terms of playing notes above root note do you mean playing the other notes in the chord so for example on a chord that lasts for a whole bar (1 whole note) would I play a c2 ecah on 1st and 3rd beat or could I play a c2 on 1st beat and a shorter g1 and e2 or could I even play any notes in that whole range?

No, I am literally saying that you would play the note immediately below the "right" note so you play the "wrong" one before the beat and then the right one on the beat - eg 1 or 2 frets below depending on key

Hard to explain but I can show you if I record some examples


Also, you should find the next podcast interesting   - I have said too much, you haven't seen me right  

[Sing4me88]

Hi Boydie- I always look forward to the next podcast But I'll especially look forward to the next one!

Cheers for all the advice re bass here. I'm slowly working my way through the deep songwriting/music forest and I'll enjoy trying out these tricks you mention. I enjoy messing about with notes, drums etc and seeing what comes out - mostly is sounds ghastly but the playing around within a DAW is pretty fun and cool. Maybe that'll wear of the more 'serious' I get.  It'd sure be cool to here some examples of bass. I find reading all the theory stuff is fine but having something to listen to really puts it all into context and is easier to connect with.

Thanks again for all your really helpful advice

[Winter1982]

Hey ,as the others have said, this is a huge question!

I can't add much technically to what has been offered in great detail by the others, you have some great answers there!

What I would throw in is...... The magic of a Band.

So many of the things you ask; drum pattern, how do you know what they best bass line is? These things get thrashed out by a band. You play your song and the band jam along, trying different patterns, different bass lines, keyboards, harmonies, depth. It'll click. You'll all know when it does. Incredibly difficult to achieve this on your own!

Share your stuff out. Get other input.... Form a band haha!

[adamfarr]

Agree about the band - though also think it's great that we all are motivated to get outside of our specialist areas and have at least a general knowledge of beats / basslines etc. I think we have technology to thank for that... (And if none around then now we can have virtual bands too...)