[DevyE]

There is much said about the quality of a demo to pitch to publishers, so to gain more insight, do you believe they have to be perfect representations of the finished product and if so why?

Obviously a good demo is desirable for a publisher to get an idea of the product they could promote to suitable artists etc, but does it have to be the finished product which I often see quoted?

If a publisher successfully agrees a deal with an artist and their management team, would they then not want to re-record it themselves, possibly in a different key, tempo, with different instrumentation maybe, recorded with professional musicians/producer in the style of the artist  to give it the best chance of success?

Your thoughts?

[Boydie]

do you believe they have to be perfect representations of the finished product and if so why?

Yes

The reason is quite simple - and has been covered numerous times

If you are submitting songs to publishers, labels, artists, managers etc. then you are entering the music BUSINESS

Your song is your "pitch"

The people that make decisions about whether to use a song are BUSINESS people - they are not musicians

You would be pitching against professional writers who have sessions musicians and studios at their finger tips - as well as a potential proven track record

So if you want to enter this arena you not only need an amazing song but it must be the "finished product"

A good example is a CV when applying for a job

Would you submit a hand written, tea stained, dog eared, piece of paper full of spelling mistakes

OR

Would you present yourself in the best way you can by typing it up and making it the best it can be

Both would contain the same "information" but one may stand a better chance of success


It is exactly the same with submitting demos - if you don't believe in your song enough to make it the best it can be by hiring a studio and session musicians why should a publisher believe in it and invest in having it re-recorded

Times have changed and submitting a "pop song" as a guitar & vocal recorded using an iPhone will not stand as much chance as a fully produced demo

If the song was good enough there is obviously still a "chance" that it would get picked up but in any competitive environment you need to ensure that you do as much as you can to help with success

I can actually make a burger that tastes better than a McDonald's burger but I haven't been able to achieve global dominance by writing to people asking them to taste it and build a multi-million £ empire using my recipe   - apparently I need to invest in myself to start with

If a publisher successfully agrees a deal with an artist and their management team, would they then not want to re-record it themselves, possibly in a different key, tempo, with different instrumentation maybe, recorded with professional musicians/producer in the style of the artist  to give it the best chance of success?

A song may well be re-recorded (although elements of an existing demo often get used) BUT the artist/label wll want to hear a demo that has been professionally recorded

This is just how it is now

The decision to make is do you believe in your songs enough to invest in them yourself? - either by paying a studio/producer to turn them in to "radio ready" songs or learn how to do it yourself

[S.T.C]

Some publishers/producers do state that a simple, singer/piano demo will do...but you will need to pay a vocalist (if not your good self) and a clear home studio recording may do(but i would pay for studio time) ...other than that, get a PRO studio to do it, it must be good enough for a radio station to use!

Of course if someone of note picked up your song,then there's every chance it would be re-done, with their musicians etc...

 Also,something i've read, and that's a demo should not be perfect to the point a new producer can add nothing of themselves to it ,and the vocalist should not intimidate a new vocalist with their abilities(studio singers are often better trained than artists) ....it's tricky getting it right.

[Onelabel]

Some great comments above. I would add that I've heard some really great demos that have been big sounding, 'radio ready' tunes. However these were typically from writer artists/bands who are trying to sell the 'package'

I've also heard some pretty amazing demos that have been quite minimal in production (guitar, bass and light percussion), but the production was very current sounding - similar to songs that have charted over the last couple of years.

However, either way vocals were always extremely strong. If in any doubt get a session artist.

[DevyE]

I appreciate this has been discussed before but this is a songwriting forum and I do enjoy discussing these things with like minded people and appreciate reading all your views on the subject so thanks for that. I'm not looking for personal advice but just like to hear the thoughts of those who may have submitted songs of various quality to publishers.


In this day and age I think a picture painted of the music BUSINESS being full of greyed haired suited ogres dismissing people and their songs is outdated. Most people I've met in business (not music) have been approachable, polite and usually very helpful so think people working in the music BUSINESS would be the same. Also I would like to believe that publishers can identify a good song if it's well produced or not (not a very poor recording) as it's their job to find material, obviously the difficult bit for the musician is getting their attention.

Yes I've heard the stories about artists wanting radio ready demos that they can karaoke over and flog to their audience but is that usually the case? I would like to think not and that most artists management team would want to re-record a song to suit their artists style, be it current pop, MOR etc and just use the demo as a guide, but maybe I'm wrong?

 
 
I was browsing around and came across an article from a music publication, it's a few years old now and is obviously the view of only one publisher but I've copied a couple of paragraphs that seemed relevant for this discussion, it backs up much said but tries to give a positive spin for the musician :-


As a publisher, I get a large amount of unsolicited material into my office. Even if I do not think the material is right for our company, I listen to everything that comes my way. Songwriters often complain that they do not think the material they send gets heard. I can say from personal experience that it is just not true. Most good publishers are always on the look out for the 'next big thing' and we don't know where it's going to come from. As such, we check everything. As a songwriter, though, there are things you can do to get on the radar of a publisher and things you can do to turn them off to you. When sending out demos, don't worry too much about packaging and graphics, or for the most part, sonic clarity. I don't suggest sending out a very poorly recorded demo that you did on your grandmother's old cassette player, but professional publishers can hear a good song even if it is not mixed properly or contains sounds that are a bit dated. Your concentration should be on the creation of the best material possible, with clear contact information listed on the product, so the publisher
can contact you.


Another fact that most songwriters fail to understand is that this is a business: this isn't a 'game' or a 'hustle'. It's not personal, either. The quicker you, as a songwriter, have that sink into your head, the better off you'll be. So what if a certain publisher doesn't think your songs are ready for a star to
record? There are tons of other publishers and you have to stay positive. Remember that each type of publisher has its pros and cons. What's perfect for one songwriter isn't so for another. Choose the one that fits you best. The important thing is that you should know as much as possible about your career. If that means reading articles like this over and over, so be it. If that means asking questions among your peers, do it! What's the bottom line when it comes to publishing? Just be creative — the right music publisher can handle the rest!

[Boydie]

I also love discussing this type of stuff

I never said the music BUSINESS execs were "ogres" - I was just saying that they are not always "arty" or musicians so they will not appreciate a clever chord change or creative lyrics

What they want to hear is a "guaranteed hit" - and (IMHO) that means hearing something that they recognise as being a hit - which means hearing something that sounds like what they hear on the radio

To me that means the song's "production values" need to match what is heard on the radio - or at least be close enough

This clearly varies song by song - an EDM / Pop song pitch recorded with just guitar and vocal will probably not be the best approach!


Even though a publisher may be able to spot a “diamond in the rough” they then need to try and pitch it on your behalf to the “suits” – who are most likely to be accountants

A publisher could pay to have it re-recorded but in today’s market why should they if the songwriter has not bothered to invest in the song?

A songwriter is competing with “the pros” on every single pitch so (IMHO) to stand a chance a pitch does need to be “radio ready”

I am of course referring to “unknown” writers without a publishing deal

A publisher would “look after” a signed writer with a strong track record and will pay for studio time, collaborations etc. – and may even accept a stripped down demo - but I think we are talking about getting that first step in the door, in which case your songs need to be BETTER than the pros!



The bit I do agree with (and to which I am personally banking on!) is that there is definitely a shortage of "guaranteed hits" and the industry is looking out for them

I haven’t yet written anything that I think could be considered “hit worthy” but I do think I am getting closer each time and I am confident that I will recognise it when I write it!

[Onelabel]

Ive sat with a publisher when they went through other writers songs so Ive picked up a few interesting tips:
1) when they press play on your song they desperately want it to be the best song they've ever heard. So I agree with your point that these aren't people looking to say no

2) They make a decision VERY quickly in most cases, I recon 40 seconds on average (ever heard the phrase 'don't bore us - get to the chorus'?) so if a song hasn't grabbed them as they hit the main part of the chorus then you've lost them.

3) the 'Shortlisted' songs (those that passes 2) we're put to one side and were listened to again and again (all the way through). Of these, the ones they found most interesting resulted in a quick, 'tell me more and have you got any more as good as that?' email. The people I spoke with estimated that (even at this stage) they were only actively progressing one in 10. As I previously mentioned, conversations regularly concentrated on 'so what are you doing now, who are you working with, what exposure are you getting?' it's very important for them to understand your abilities in 'helping' to get your song played around.

4) Production quality is important in that they need to be able to play your song to others in whatever form you initially send them. So if the songs have dated production (most common fault) or the vocals are shaky (uninspiring or again dated) then they will move on to the next track. They simply do not have the time/budget to rerecord a song they like so it's professional enough to play to others. A sweet voice and some decently recorded but simple guitar/accompaniment is better than a studio produced track that just sounds dated. However, you are ramping up your chances even more if you are able to produce a current-sounding, radio ready song - but that is very very hard. I know I keep saying it but a dated sound is a killer.

[DevyE]

Interesting and valid points Boydie and Onelabel and although similar to what we've all heard before it does paint a depressing picture of the state of the music business. So what is being inferred is :-

1) Publishers are only interested in top 40 hits, and if they believe a demo doesn't fit that one niche (but lucrative) market, they are not interested.
2) Publishers don't have the ability to tell if a song is good or not unless the demo is gift wrapped with ribbons in high production.
3) Publishers are only interested in promoting high production demos.
4) Publishers only believe that songwriters actively gigging with an online presence have songs/demos worthy of promoting.


Any publishers out there that would like to comment? 

[Boydie]

1 - 3 yes (unfortunately, but that is the reality!) - there will always be exceptions but this is the "rule"

4 - no, I would say that this applies to labels and "artists" (rather than publishers and songwriters)

[Onelabel]

My 2c

1) no not necessarily. Publishers need songs that will make them money, so will always be motivated towards top-40. However there are still a lot of artists who sell shed loads of music and rarely touch the top-40 and they need songs too.

2) and 3) no, like I said - high caliber songs with qualityproduction will be taken seriously by publishers. Badly produced, recorded and/or dated production will not.

4) I agree to a point what Boydie has said, but I know of a number of instances where publishers are motivated by a writers connections. It's a major issue in the States(eg Nashville), but is becoming increasingly relevant here too.

[S.T.C]

I think ultimately most publishers are looking /hoping for , a mega contemporary hit,thats perfectly recorded and they can easily place for a nice fat profit......other than that. something that's got an edge, perspective, fresh, stands out from the pack.

Of course when it comes to synch publishing,for films TV ,then many types of song may qualify....but with the publishers i'm contacting ,i'm getting the 'stands out from the pack' impression (not that they give you FB on stuff) they either want it and say yes...or go silent, maybe a courteous pass ..Onelabel sounds like he has more first hand experience...

Actually i have applied to join a limited membership songwriting site ,with pitching opportunities ,you have too be approved to qualify for a 1 year slot and prove you 'still have it' for a consecutive year..the cost is reasonable ,if they are really what they present themselves to be...but will be interesting to see what happens?

[DevyE]

Thanks again, it's been very interesting reading your views, a couple of last questions concerning getting a demo professionally produced. S.T.C I believe you have experience of this but Boydie and Onelabel I'm sure have some insight too, and others maybe?


1) If you haven't provided an arrangement as a guide for the hired studio as in a home demo/chord sheet etc, do you solely retain the copyright for the music they produce for your lyric?

2) If you haven't provided the arrangement do you receive any notation from the studio because wouldn't a publisher/record company want that information for re-recording purposes etc?


sorry there's a third

3) What do you receive once the song has been completed, the stems? because as mentioned the artist may wish to use parts of the demo, redo the vocal/s, remix/remaster etc or do you only receive a wave file and of what quality 16bit, 24bit, FLAC etc?


Thanks in advance, it's been fun chatting about this subject

[S.T.C]

Every thing is yours. They don't make claim of the song. As too music notation , I don't know, but they don't require your chords , ,they know them or at least know what they will do with whatever you send them-so I guess another producer will also .


You receive mp3 and wav file .as to the bit quality again I don't know. The chances are the finished song will not be re cut  in my opinion but be used by radio or TV if it gets a cut.

[Boydie]

I produce my own demos and also produce demos for others at very reasonable costs to fund my plugin addiction (  )

1 - if you provide just the lyrics then I think there is a grey area that needs discussing because if the "producer" provides a MELODY for the lyric then it is more of a "co-write" than a production

Only lyrics and melodies are subject to copyright so if this is not agreed up front you could have difficulties later on if the song was "picked up"

If you have the lyric and melody (and chords) and the producer is providing the arrangement, recording, production, mix and master then I think it is more likely that you will retain 100% of the writing credits - although it is still worth confirming this, in writing, in advance

2 - this would probably be an additional cost for "sheet music" but is not usually required when pitching - just the "demo" and a lyric sheet are usually submitted

3 - The answer to this should be "whatever you want"

Just be sure to ask "up front" because it can be time-consuming to run every variation of mix / stem

If you are clear on what you want then agree it up front and it will be taken into consideration when the price is set

I would personally provide MP3 versions throughout the process - eg "I have finished the drums, have a listen and let me know if this is the direction you were thinking" etc.

Once a final mix has been agreed I would provide an MP3 and a CD quality WAV file (44.1kHz/ 16bit)

I personally record at 48kHz / 24bits so can always provide higher quality if required, and can run off stems and different mixes at any time as and when they are required, but I think CD quality is a good benchmark for a demo

I didn't mean this to be a sales pitch but I thought I would share my experience as I have done this work for other songwriters

[S.T.C]

With a writers paradise its in their terms.  They make no claims to the finished song
They produce too many songs to have time to update,  but some outfits will I guess. But with my experience with them , is just let them get on with it.
 
A lyrics only submission were they charge to write a melody is in effect a co write,  but it doesn't affect your ownership of the work. I have always supplied a guide video , type of vocalist,  instruments, and thoughts on how the song should carry,  obviously they add things that make it better,  they are professional musicians after all.

What I think is some ideas I have are hard to pre demo anyway , it would be expensive an extremely time consuming to try, I am looking for a writing position so the songs are mainly demo's of me, it's like work with me and we can produce this!