[JoostTel]

First: thanks, @HM, for your reply to "Your Car". You said you think it just needs a better production (and better vocals, which *I know - still looking for anyone with a nice voice who is willing...  ). Can you be more precise what you would suggest production wise?

Second: my third and possibly final post to this forum (depends on reactions  ).
Please comment, be honest if you hate it, especially if you tell me why. Composition, arrangement, instruments, lyrics, vocals*, anything!

Good or *Bad
https://soundcloud.com/joosttel/good-or-bad-1

There's poverty, there's squander, the intolerance is vast,
The world is such a bad place now, was it better in the past?
Well - In Gods name we could kill a man and become his daughters groom
but never could we love another guy or be forever doomed
Is that what you presumed?
Based on a single snitch
We would go burn that witch
We could be mild though
Like when Joseph married Mary
He was old, she was a child
We would only have smiled

Just centuries ago you thought it would be nice
to torture vicious criminals before your childrens eyes
The docters they took care of you but cure you they would not
'cause curing you would violate the inalienable right of God
who in fact did not cure a lot
and if you were black or brown
born in a cotton town
you would enjoy your life because you wouldn't
dream it any other way
being a slave was okay

'Cause good and bad
is what we teach us
it's not our soul, it's not our genes
it's just the game we play
Yeah Good or bad
just rules that reach us
don't worry if you disagree
just never ever say so

Some say you shouldn't spank your kids some others say you should
Some say all life is holy but some others call it food
I know of countries in the world where girls are not allowed
to vote or drive or show their faces anywhere without disguise
Most of them think that's wise
Is it okay to lie?
Are you allowed to die?
Had you been born
in another time or region
you would judge without a doubt
who you are now

'Cause good and bad
is what we teach us
it's not our soul, it's not our genes
it's just the game we play
Yeah Good or bad
just rules that reach us
don't worry if you disagree
just never ever say so

'Cause good and bad
is what we teach us
it's not your soul, it's not your genes
it's just the game we play
Yeah Good or bad
just rules that reach us
don't worry if you disagree
just never ever say so

[Mystic Dreamer]

I like it.  I think it speaks to truth, and we could use more songs along these lines.

Musically speaking it could probably be improved upon a bit, although I can't think of anything specific to offer right off the top of my head.  But I'd give it a thumbs up in terms of being worthy of continued work.

There are some "phrasing" suggestions I could make.  I was trying to sing this myself and when it comes to the chorus, as a singer, I would love to have more time between the first and second stanza of the chorus: I would toy with the words "play: and  "say so" for a while and drag them out a bit more.

'Cause good and bad
is what we teach us
it's not our soul, it's not our genes
it's just the game we play
(more time here to play with the word play)
Yeah Good or bad
just rules that reach us
don't worry if you disagree
just never ever say so
(same thing here with "say so")  I would play a little bit on that for while.

That just what comes to me when I try singing along.

If you could provide me with the track without vocals I could trying singing what I have in mind to offer phrasing ideas.  Most of the phrasing would fit the music as is, but in the chorus the music might need to be modified to allow for a lingering "play" and "say so".

Anyway, that's my suggestions.  Not very helpful without actually hearing the phrasing that I'm suggesting though. 

I might also toy with lyrics a tad for the sake of phrasing too, but nothing dramatic. The points you make and how you make them is pretty good "as is" I think.

[JoostTel]

Hi Mystic Dreamer,

Sounds great that you would like to try singing.
I put links to instrumental versions at the bottom of http://www.rehtel.nl/mp3/goodorbad.asp - both wav and mp3 to your convenience and both the original version as a version with added bars as you requested.

Since I post this on the forum, I encourage everyone with a good voice to try it!

Looking forward to hearing your attempt, and most certainly also to your tad with regard to phrasing

Joost

[Mystic Dreamer]

Ok Joost, I'll try to give this a shot.

Although, for some reason the links the added bars versions aren't working for me.

[JoostTel]

Fixed.

[diademgrove]

Hi JoostTel,

this isn't really my type of music so my comments may be miles out. I wasn't keen on the piano arpeggios, they took me away from the words too often. I like the sentiments but found you used far too many words, they diluted the message you wanted to get across, at least for me.

I loved the ending though.

Our community works because we take the time to comment on each other's songs. It is often difficult to comment, especially if you haven't done it before, but its what makes our forum the great place it is. I'm sure if you posted some comments on other people's songs you'd get more comments in return.

Keith

[JoostTel]

Thank you Keith!

I hadn't commented on other songs yet because I'm new here - and I felt I had to grasp the athmosphere first before I had any right to comment. Besides - I don't really think I have any status or have earned the right to comment. Will keep your suggestion in mind though!

Joost

[diademgrove]

Hi Joost,

commenting on other people's songs is always difficult but its what makes our forum go around. Just by joining you earn the right to comment. Sometimes a short I like that because... is enough. I may have a listen to your other song tomorrow or later in the week.

Hope to see more from you over the coming weeks and months,

Keith

[Mystic Dreamer]

Joost,

Just for the record, I haven't forgotten about this.  My heat went out and my water froze up so I'm having habitat problems in my local where the temperature is in the single digits Fahrenheit.

I actually did give this a bit of a go prior to my habitat catastrophe.  I found that it's not as easy to sing over as I thought.  So I don't know if I'll be able to do what I had in mind.  I was also having hardware problems between my mixer and recording software and I just now got that ironed out by downloading a new mixer driver.

So we'll see.  Maybe when I get my life back together I'll come up with something.

[took-the-red-pill]

The song, and the vocal actually remind me of Roger Waters' style(of Pink Floyd Fame)

My first thought is that to me the theme doesn't fit the music. The arpeggiated piano sounds pretty, and nice, yet the lyrics are dark and brooding. I think the whole song needs to reflect the mood found in the lyrics. Go listen to any of Dark Side Of The Moon, or The Wall, as far as fitting music with a deep brooding subject. True, Pink Floyd might be too depressing, but I'm just trying to use an example to illustrate a point. In The Air Tonight by Phil Collins is another example of setting mood and lyrics very well together.

As far as lyrical content, I think you might be trying to cover too much ground here. You cover everything from burning witches in days of yore, to whether or not parents should spank, to slaves in cotton fields of the U.S.A. with many stops in between. In reality each of those topics is a song all its own. In a song, we only have a few minutes. We have to focus like a laser beam on one main idea, and then show the listener our thoughts on that one main idea.

If you need examples, pull up the lyrics to ANY Paul Simon song ever. In each song he talks about one central theme, and then he writes around that.

I hope I haven't discouraged you. This song is still worth pursuing, but I believe it needs to be focused, and that the tone of the song needs to match the lyrics more closely.

My two red pills
Keith

[Mystic Dreamer]

I tend to agree with the Red Pill on the music not fitting the song theme very well.  But then again that can depend on the purpose. 

As it is right now it comes across to me as a "comedy skit" that is attempting to make a serious point in a humorous way.  I could see this working very well in something like Monty Python, or Saturday Night Live.  But as a stand alone song the music doesn't fit the theme at all.

I've been trying to sing over this and this is exactly the problem I'm having.  The music just doesn't fit the "mood" that I would like to convey with the lyrics.  The lyrics naturally conjure up feelings of disgust or even anger, but those emotions don't fit over the music.  The music is quite light-hearted and even comical in comparison with the meat of the lyrics.

And that's exactly what I find happening to me when I try to sing over this.  My natural emotions to express the theme doesn't fit the music.  So I find myself trying to sing in an almost "comedic" fashion as though I'm just making a joke of it all.  Perhaps this is your original intent? 

Every time I try to sing it I can't help of think of John Cleese.  It seems like a perfect song for him to do in a comedy skit.  At least with this particular music.  Actually it would work quite well "as is" for that purpose I suppose.   

In the meantime, I've been working on my own songs instead. 

[JoostTel]

Good morning!

Thanks for those who responded. I have been thinking of the major advises you gave - which in my view are about the lyrics and music not matching and the lyrics covering too much ground.
I'm afraid I have to conclude that for this song we simply disagree. For the song "Your car" I'm still very much in doubt how to completely change the mood of the music to make it fit better with the emotions I tried to grab in the lyrics. But for "Good or Bad" I didn't mean to grow disgust or anger at all; I wanted lightheartedness with perhaps a little melancholy, because that for me is what the lyrics want to bring.

I've finally found a way to let my voice sound a little less bad; that's on www.rehtel.nl/mp3/goodorbad.asp

So if there are any hints on how I can make it sound better without changing the lyrics or the whole song - change instruments, make the instruments sound better (I'm not happy with the drums, for instance), I'm looking forward to these tips!

Joost

[Mystic Dreamer]

I think it sounds good the way it is. Considering your intent it may actually be perfect.  You're just kind of stating all the sad things humanity has done and continues to do without attaching any emotional baggage to it other than the fact that it is indeed sad.

Just for whatever it's worth, a following second chorus came to mind:

'Cause good and bad
is what we teach us
it's not our soul, it's not our genes
it's just the game we play
Yeah Good or bad
just rules that reach us
don't worry if you disagree
just never ever say so

'Cause good and bad
no point in passing judgment
it's not our soul, it's not our genes
it's just the way we are
Yeah Good or bad
it's truly sad
to think we'll never care
or truly love each other.

Just an idea for whatever it's worth.