Piano sounds

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Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« on: September 30, 2014, 05:48:22 PM »
A question that I've been meaning to ask...

Apart from an out of tune old upright (which isn't the easiest thing to record anyway from what I read) I only have the option of using a fake piano. I'm using Piano One which seems to be the best free one around.
I'm often using a 'chord to a bar' accompaniment which is fine but I Wonder if there is any way to get the initial chord sound to be a bit less abrupt/harsh if you know what I mean. This is possible on the real thing...a little bit more subtlety in the 'attack' (which may not be the correct terminology here). I don't think it's simply a question of volume.

Any ideas please?
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tokenangmoh

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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2014, 05:59:23 PM »
Hi.

Attack is indeed the correct terminology.

You could try a transient shaper. Here's a free one. Insert it as an effect and turn the big wheel anti-clockwise to taste. (I haven't tried it as I use NI's Transient Master, but it's got good reviews...)

Matt

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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2014, 06:26:05 PM »
Thanks Matt

I'll have a look at that.

Ian
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tone

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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2014, 06:47:16 PM »
Personally, I'd get the upright tuned and to hell with it being hard to record. REAL PIANO :o Yeah :D

But, back to your actual question - how are you recording this fake piano? Are you performing it live into your DAW or programming it? Either way, reducing the velocity (playing more softly) should give you a gentler tone.

Another thing you can do is 'stagger' the chord (I can't remember the proper name for this) so instead of playing them all at once, play them like you're slowly strumming a guitar chord.

If you're really stuck, and it's just chords, drop me a PM and I'll do it for you if you're not in a big hurry ;)
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Boydie

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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2014, 07:37:51 PM »
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Another thing you can do is 'stagger' the chord (I can't remember the proper name for this)

Arpeggio  ;)
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Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2014, 09:05:13 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Ideally I would use the real piano, and maybe in time that will happen.

Thanks for the offer of help Tone but I'll get by somehow with these ideas.

I don't hate the sound I'm getting now but always looking to improve it

Cheers
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tokenangmoh

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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 01:44:40 PM »
I should add:

I agree that Piano One is the best free piano out there, but it doesn't follow that Sound Magic's paid pianos are the best out there. In fact, they're overpriced, oddly laid out, don't sound that brilliant, and the developer has terrible customer service.

This developer posts on the KVR forum all the time about his new products (about one a month - a ludicrously fast rate), using inflated language about the "groundbreaking technology" in his plugins, even though they're pretty much all based on established products from more famous developers. Which would be fine, I guess, if he lowered his prices; but his products are actually often more expensive than the ones they mimic.

So if you feel like upgrading your piano sound, don't take the bait he's a-dangling!

There are loads of great plugin pianos out there, and I own a fair few of them. If you do want to upgrade, I'd be happy to offer suggestions.

Matt

tone

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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 03:57:55 PM »
I invite you to post your recommendations anyway Matt - it's good to have the information in the thread for lurkers as well as posters ;)

I'll chip in with my own experiences. I had a friend put some piano parts through his fancy Native Instruments pianos: New York, Vienna & Berlin (Concert Grands) and I can categorically say I didn't like any of them. One in particular had a really horrible room sound that just was horrible to use.

The pianos that come with Logic Pro and Reason are much nicer in my opinion. Hope that helps :)
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tokenangmoh

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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 05:11:57 PM »
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I had a friend put some piano parts through his fancy Native Instruments pianos: New York, Vienna & Berlin (Concert Grands) and I can categorically say I didn't like any of them.

Yeah, they're NI's last-gen pianos and they are not good. I own them because they came with NI's Komplete Ultimate bundle, but I've never used them. Having said that, I'd wager that the "horrible room sound" you heard is not baked into the piano and could have been removed by your friend if (s)he'd fiddled with the knobs.

NI's newer pianos are much better. Alicia's Keys ($99) is a nice, soulful, semi-poppy, piano ballad-y sound, but I find it hard to EQ, and it can get a bit muddy in a mix. That might just be me...

The Giant ($99) is very interesting and capable of a wide range of tones. I've doodled with it quite happily, and think I'd use it if I were doing something Philip Glass-y.

NI also has some very new pianos which seem to sound pretty good.

But while I'd be tempted to recommend buying one of NI's bundles, I wouldn't recommend the pianos for an individual purchase.

Here are my suggestions. Boydie and others, please join in and argue.

If you can afford it and you're willing to put up with iLok, get Ivory II Grand Pianos by Synthogy ($349).  You get three deeply sampled, wonderful sounding - and different-sounding - pianos: a Steinway, a Bosendorfer and a Yamaha. Unless you need an upright, there's not a lot you couldn't do with these three, piano-wise.

They have sympathetic resonance, release noises, lid positions, optional reverb... Everything you'd expect a modern piano library to have.

Synthogy's Ivory II American Concert D ($199) is also very good, and even more deeply sampled than the three above. You only get one piano here, but it's very usable (its range goes all the way from bubblegum pop to classical) and it's a cinch to fit it into a mix. It maybe isn't quite as dark as you'd want for some solo chamber pieces, but for a single piano instrument, it's about as versatile as you could hope.

For both the Synthogy products, remember that you need to factor in an iLok ($49.99) if you don't already have one. Of course, you only need to buy one iLok.

But Ivory II is going to be overkill for a lot of people. For non-pianists who want a good rock or pop piano that fits nicely into the mix and doesn't take up too much space, I'd recommend ToonTrack's EZkeys.

ToonTrack have a weird pricing system, which I will attempt to explain.

"EZkeys" refers to a songwriting plugin framework, which lets you key in chords and produces a full piano part for you. If you can't play piano (and I can't) this is a very good thing.

ToonTrack offers two acoustic pianos that work with the EZkeys songwriting system: EZkeys Grand Piano and EZkeys Upright Piano.

Whichever one you buy first (€139) will come with the songwriting capability, and then you'll get a discount on the next one you buy.

(By the way, don't buy the first one from the ToonTrack website. Instead, check the price at http://www.pluginboutique.com/ and http://www.sweetwater.com/ - they're usually cheaper. The only downside is you usually get your license key a day later.)

Both pianos sound much better than they should, considering the libraries are so small. They fit into mixes easily. And they have inspiring, usable and tweakable presets.

The downsides are that they don't stand up very well to solo work because they don't have good enough low dynamics. And if you use the songwriting function, you'll probably end up buying some of the €25 MIDI expansion packs which give you access to music of different genres.

I should point out that the pianos work perfectly well even if you don't use the songwriting function. And also that there are also electric pianos and a Mellotron available in the EZkeys range.

My last suggestion is Modartts's Pianoteq 5. Pianoteq is 100% physically modeled, which means it doesn't use samples like my other suggestions; rather it uses maths to create a virtual model of a piano. I should note: some people swear they can hear that Pianoteq is fake and decry it as an abomination. I can't hear that. And these people tend not to do very well in blind tests...

Because it doesn't rely on samples, Pianoteq takes up almost no drive space and is (by all accounts) extremely responsive and playable.

Pianoteq comes in several flavours, and I have the cheap one called Pianoteq Stage (€99). It comes with 2 "full-fat" pianos, the D4 (a Steinway) and the K2 (a versatile hybrid), both of which sound great and fit into mixes. It also comes with some historical piano models, and a set of bells (!). You can also add pianos to it for €49 each: an upright, a Bluethner (which I really like) and a Yamaha. And you can also buy electric piano add-ons, marimbas, and chromatic percussion.

If you want to go higher up the Pianoteq product range, you get more control over microphone positioning and the properties of the mathematical piano models - but I've never felt the need.

Finally, here's the piano I am vaguely saving up for. I'm not sure I'd use it very often because it's not a good fit for the kind of music I usually write... But my god, it sounds good.

Matt
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 05:21:37 PM by tokenangmoh »

Boydie

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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 06:48:56 PM »
I have got to say that I keep coming back to the EZ KEYS upright piano sound

I only got EZ KEYS for the MIDI pattern system and had the intention of running it through my "better" piano plugins

However, for fitting in to a pop, rock, blues mix I find it has an incredible sound

I even opted to use it in a "piano ballad": http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/song-reviews/'too-late-for-me'/

I find most of the so called "better" plugins are great for solo piano pieces but don't necessarily work as well in a mix

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Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2014, 08:38:25 AM »
Thanks for all the info guys.

 I found that I have a transient shaper as part of free reaper plugs Matt.
I gave it a go and indeed it does take away some of that punchy attack.

I also found a Kontact instrument by Big Cat Audio I think based on the Iowa university piano samples which doesn't sound too bad to my cloth ears. This is free too!
 Iowa Piano

Funnily enough Matt I stumbled across the one you're vaguely saving up for too. Interesting!

I've kind of decided that I'm going to get the piano tuned and try to get a better recording of it. This will involve also getting more than one good mic from what I've garnered on my internet travels.

This will be after I win the lottery.

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