"If you're in marketing...kill yourself" (Bill Hicks)

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rossanne

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« on: April 26, 2011, 07:45:08 PM »
So, was Bill tongue-in-cheek when he said that? Or did he really mean it?

I think he meant it. Well...maybe not the "actually kill yourself" part, but I don't think he had a high opinion of them.

This illustrates a bit of a problem for the go-it-alone independent singer-songwriter. No one is going to market you or your songs for you. But then again, nobody likes an artists who looks as if they're trying too hard. I mean, maybe people have a grudging respect for Madonna, but I don't think anyone particularly likes the marketing aspect of her personality.

So what is a girl (or guy) to do?

If you're on your own, you HAVE to try hard, very very hard, if you want to get anywhere. This is because I think 'being discovered' is like winning the lottery at best, and a misleading myth at worst. But isn't self-promotion ugly? I've mentioned somewhere else on this forum that I'd like to start my own label. But that's essentially self-promotion. Something I'm not very good at, and it sticks in my teeth a bit when I talk about my own music.

Any thoughts? Anyone disagree? Cos at the moment I'm attempting the "how to try really really hard, without looking like you're trying really really hard" sort of approach. Don't think I'm too good at it, and not particularly feeling comfortable about doing things like writing press releases or even asking friends to do it. 

What do you do? Do you just grow a thicker skin and get on with it? I'm naturally self-effacing, but been recently thinking about Ani Difranco and Amanda Palmer (my all time heroes) and wondering if I have to have a complete personality change in order to stop feeling like some sort of self-contradictory idiot.

And as always, a ramble. Hope it makes sense!
Ross x 

tone

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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2011, 08:19:09 PM »
I think Bill meant it in a hand-on-the-heart kind of way. But, and it's an important but; I think he was talking about the kind of marketing we see with mega-brands. After all, even the venerable Mr Hicks needed to let people know where his gigs were, or he'd have stopped paying his rent.

It's funny, you seem to be at roughly the same juncture as me. I'm putting plans together to record an album, and I'm going to either release it on my own, or put it on my friend's label, which essentially achieves the same thing, but reaches his pre-existing audience and contacts without doubling up the effort.

I understand that it feels uncomfortable, but I think you'll grow a thicker skin as you go along. Not all marketing has to leave a bad taste in your mouth. And with the near-ubiquity of the internet and social networks, you can take advantage of the social web, which is not only a great way to let folks know about your music projects, but it's also a very direct, non-marketing kind of approach.

The way I see it is that you can promote your own work without becoming a complete arsehole. Seperate your work out from yourself (difficult I know for a songwriter), but don't buy into the idea that you're creating a product called Rossanne. Your music is your product (what a hideous word) and so are your performances. Don't get caught up in the old fashioned ideas about marketing. Be yourself, don't be afraid of letting people know where you're playing and where they can buy your album. Remember, people want to know this stuff.

If you owned a holiday cottage, would you balk at the idea of taking an ad out in the local paper? Why should your music be different? There's more than one way to approach it; and I'm sure you'll find the best approach for you. :)
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rossanne

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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2011, 08:45:52 PM »
After all, even the venerable Mr Hicks needed to let people know where his gigs were, or he'd have stopped paying his rent.

That's hilarious! I'd never thought of it that way.

I hear what you're saying about the artist not being the brand, but as much as I hate to say it, isn't that wrong? I mean, I'm not a brand, cos I'm way too small-time, but what about people like Ani Difranco and Amanda Palmer. Aren't people invested in who they are as people because of their music? And because of that, don't they need to be really careful about how they portray that image of themselves? Maybe you wouldn't call that marketing, but I'm not too sure.

If left to my own natural devices, I would go to my album launch, mumble into the mic about how I'm not too happy with the recordings and hope them to be better next time, maybe if I'm feeling very awkward I might mention how weird it is to have a one-way conversation with a bunch of strangers who are just staring back at you, and then wack into a song. That would be rubbish. Maybe I'd have a few people who thought it was cute, and maybe I'd make a whole lot of people feel uncomfortable. And if I attempt to be perhaps a 'different version of myself', wouldn't that be dangerously close to the realms of self-marketing? Or would you call it something else?

I get what you're saying about not having to be an arsehole in order to promote your stuff. But I think the thing I'm most worried about is not being authentic. I guess I just haven't found a way that feels ok yet.

p.s. have you got a release date yet? I'd be really interested in the boxes you tick for it - what things you feel you need to do in order to have a successful one. God, the lists on the web are enough to make you wanna go back to just playing in your bedroom!






tone

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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 09:14:16 PM »
I agree that authenticity is very important for songwriters. But being authentic doesn't have to mean creating a false version of yourself to make a gig work, or to avoid mumbling uncomfortable monologues into the mic on album launch day :D

I thought of Laura Marling when you said that actually. She's very shy, and often just says "hello, I'm Laura" and not much else. If you think about it, as people we're incredibly complex, and have much more than one aspect to our personalities. It's completely acceptable to make the best of the most confident part of your personality in a situation like that. Don't feel like you have to make a speech either. Why not say something like "thanks for coming to my album launch. I've really enjoyed making the record, and I'm going to play you some of the songs tonight."

As far as the person behind the music being very important to the listener, yes and no. All of my favourite songwriters come across as very down to earth in public appearances or interviews. They let their music do the talking, and that's how it should be in my book. Even Rufus Wainwright, despite being utterly 'fabulous' is actually just a normal, somewhat eccentric person. People will make up their own minds about you, most likely in response to your music. How you come across comes second, and so long as you're not arrogant, rude or playing the rock star, I don't see much margin for error.

No release date for my album yet - I still don't even know which songs are going on it. A friend is in the process of building a studio, where I'm going to record, and another friend is starting a label. Everything will happen when it happens.

When is your album release? And where's the launch taking place?
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Sonic-r

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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 09:28:53 PM »
Or maybe Bill Hicks was just plain wrong. As Tone said, he'd still be a plumber or whatever he was if he hadn't marketed himself as a comedian.

A lot of people confuse marketing for advertising, but they're wrong. Marketing is the total experience that your customer/client/listener/viewer goes through from the inception of the product/service/song/film to what happens after they've bought the shirt/album/cinema ticket/4 litre convertible.

Of course as a musician you are the brand and your music is the product. If you intend to sell your music what else can it be? You need to think like an artist when you're writing and performing, but think like a businesswoman when you're selling and marketing your music. Your fans don't just want to listen to you, they want to be part of your world. That's why we have fan clubs and merchandise, because fans want more than just four minutes of listening to a song. You shouldn't see that as a chore or something forbidding, but as an exciting opportunity. Your album launch is not an opportunity to sell yourself, but to meet the people who like your music. You don't advertise your music you interact with your fans to find out what they like, what makes them tick, show them that you care about them as much as they care about you.

There are so many facets to building up a following and people will see the real Rossane when they get that sense that you're not just there to take their money. That's why more and more artists are doing well thanks to the internet and bypassing the big labels. Because the artist and the fans have a had a close relationship right from the start and not just got to know each other following a dirty coffee table book or a dress made from offal.

Chris

rossanne

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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 09:42:22 PM »
Oh Tone, you sound so calm and collected and make it sound so simple! Makes me think I've been working myself up into confusion for no good reason other than doing lots of research about what indie artists 'should' be doing. :)

I think what did it was re-listening to the cd baby podcast with Lisa Lepine promotion-queen. She talks alot about people needing a story or something to relate to, something to focus on about a person in order to better connect with them as musicians. Also been thinking about this dumb press release (which I didn't do by the way, I chickened right out of it!) and was trying to think of an angle, why people should care, what makes it different to other album launch gigs, why little music magazines would want to write about it. And of course, there is no difference, not in the grand scheme of things. It's just another person showing the world a little bit of their music. There's no story in that.

And maybe there doesn't need to be a story? Maybe the music can speak for itself? I dunno. But don't you need to give people a reason to listen to it in the first place?

(p.s. And it's at a little bar called Leftbank in Bristol 7th May. Part of the arts trail and I've got a bunch of artists to do a piece on each song of mine. So it'll be an exhibition too. Thought it was a good idea at the time, when it was still just an idea! ::))

rossanne

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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 09:50:25 PM »
Sonic-r, I think you've hit the nail on the head! It feels like a chore, and really scarey. People I don't know scare the hell out of me! One guy at the end of one of my gigs came up to me afterwards and asked me if I killed kittens before I went on stage. He asked for a CD, so I guess it was supposed to be funny? But the audience freak me out, with their tiny little judging eyes (ok, I'm exagerating about the eyes thing, but it does scare me). It's difficult to know what to do with them if they worry you. It's almost as if I want to say "there there audience, nice audience, I'm just gonna do my thing over here, you can stay over there, and don't make any sudden moves, ok?"

How do you get over that?  ???

Sonic-r

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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 10:20:32 PM »
Is that a 'second category audience' or a 'first category audience?' (One that you've been booked to entertain, or one that has paid money to come to see you?) I'm not a performer, but I've been in a few audiences in my time. (As you must have been too.) How did you feel when you were part of the audience? Didn't you want the artist to do well? Weren't you on their side to begin with? People are just there to be entertained and they want you to do well. It's not a witch trial. They don't turn up hoping that the singer will be bloody awful!

Maybe the kitten guy was from the Alan Partridge school of charm and thought a witty comment would be an icebreaker. If he had handed you a dead kitten as a gift, now that would have been scary.

Chris

rossanne

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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011, 10:36:40 PM »
Both category of audiences. Although more so with the ones I'm booked to entertain. I've been in a few audiences, and have felt all sorts of things from "this is amazing" to "I feel really embarrassed for that person" (even if it's someone I've specifically gone to see). I've heard people slagging off musicians on stage whilst they're mid-flow, even if they've gone to see them. Either those audience members suck, or they're entitled to slag someone off who's putting themself on a stage. I don't think that's me being paranoid. I think that's reality. But it's a hard one to know and still put yourself out there. (Hard to still market yourself when you can think of a hundred sniping comments in return.) Much easier to shyly look at the floor and not look like so much of a target. Or at least that's what it feels like.

So maybe this is the rub - marketing yourself makes you a more vulnerable target for naysayers. If you have someone doing it for you, you can hide behind their opinions. And the more you look like you're putting yourself out there, the easier it is for other people to snipe. So how to market yourself (if that is the right thing to do, or the right term to use) whilst not painting a great big target on your forehead?

I don't really mean to sound so dramatic, or upset. I'm just mulling things over here, it's not a therapy session :)  (just so's you know!)

tone

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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 10:58:22 PM »
This is a great thread!

I sort of disagree with you Rossanne - in my opinion, the self-promoters have more credibility and are less vulnerable because they're in control of their public image, and trying to get the right people along to their shows. Of course, it's possible that they're not very good at this, and like you say, there will always be someone negative in the audience. But, if you've been marketed by someone else, who knows what they're saying about you, or the conversations they're starting. You may think you know what's out there, but do you really? I think this is especially true for the more successful acts out there, whose record companies subscribe to the 'no news is bad news' model of marketing.

Feeling vulnerable at gigs is natural. It's a feeling that may never go away, but it's one you learn to manage. Recently I did a charity gig for a local country band, whose songwriter really likes my songs. The audience were all there to see him and had never heard of me. I played my set, and everyone politely listened and clapped. It was very uncomfortable. But then, after 4 hours (it was a long night with a guest speaker) I was approached by half a dozen separate people who said I played well, or had a nice voice, or that they enjoyed it. Came as a big surprise to me!

Everyone is different, and nobody likes negative feedback, but you're going to get it sooner or later. You can't please everyone, and there's usually drink involved at gigs. Try to remember the reason you're playing and they're listening. It's because you're a good songwriter, singer and musician, and they're none of these things. They might be terrible at their job! I've been listening to your songs from your website, and it's obvious that you're good enough to know how good you are, and where there's room for improvement.

At some point, you have to develop the skill of only listening to criticism from those qualified to give it. The majority of people will listen with an open mind, and enjoy hearing good music played well. As for the comment about the kittens... maybe you could incorporate that into your act the next time you play there? ;)

In all seriousness, this is what we open ourselves to when we decide to play music in public. No job is perfect, and there are down-sides to everything. Ask yourself this: which is harder to deal with: a gig where only 5 people turn up (happened to me on Friday) or a gig where someone says something ridiculous and slightly upsetting, but you have an audience at least?

I don't have the answers, and I really empathise. In fact, if I'm honest, I never played my own material at gigs until last year (I'm 35 now) just because I was too scared of people not liking it. You're doing brilliantly! Have a cake to celebrate :)
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rossanne

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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 11:49:02 PM »
I think the hardest thing I'm learning at the moment is that I need to censor myself a whole lot. (As part of marketing my music or whatever.) I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve (maybe you can tell?  ;D) and it just feels weird that I'm expected to be all upbeat and always put on a positive front. If I was at a gig and the musician was moaning about how hard it was being a musician, it wouldn't matter how much I liked them, it'd still annoy the hell out of me. Writing/commissioning press releases and the like makes me feel like a music-whore, and that's something that I can't really say on stage. Stuff like that. That feels like marketing - not letting anyone see that it's not all a laugh. That you really do try, and sometimes it really does feel like work. Sometimes you feel pretty cheap. Does that make sense? You don't hear rufus (or maybe you do?) talking about that stuff.

I mean, knuckle down b**** and get the hell on with it, of course. Hide it, fake it, whatever. I guess that's the answer.

And I guess none of this is a suprise to those of you who've been doing this for a while. But I've only just started to take it seriously. So thinking a lot at the moment.

Thankyou for bearing with me  :)

And Tone, I guess you're right about the power of controling public image. And you get a thicker skin with each criticism. I need to be more chosey about who's opinions matter to me. And about the 5 person gig thing - I had that a couple of months ago. The things we put ourselves through!  ::)

(going to buy myself a cupcake tomorrow)