[markbriscoe]

I would love to have a critique of some of my compositions here. Though I was curious to know if once they have been uploaded to a site such as this one or soundcloud Youtube etc. That they would then be considered “published” and could not be then offered to anyone in some sector of the music industry? Is that correct or am I completely mistaken?  Or perhaps it’s possible to upload a 30 second to one minute extract without spoiling a works commercial possibilities?

Any advice will be gratefully received. Thank you

[Boydie]

Hi Mark

No, one of your own songs, that you put on SoundCloud, YouTube, etc. is not considered "published" and will not affect any future pitching opportunities

When you write a song you own 100% of the publishing rights to it - ie YOU decide what you want to do with it, where it is posted (SoundCloud etc.)

If the song were to start making money you would receive 100% of the publishing royalties - as in most cases 50% is paid to the songwriter (you) and 50% to the "publisher" - also you in this case

If you felt that an established music publisher (ie an expert in the field with lots of industry contacts etc.) would do a better job of commercially exploiting your music than you, then you can try to sign a "publishing deal", which usually assigns 50% of the royalties (often referred to as "the publishers share") to the publishing company, whilst you still retain 50% of the royalties ( often referred to as the "writers share" or "artists share")

All of this is only relevant if your song is generating money of course


If you do want to make money you need to pitch your song in the best way you can - and (IMHO and experience) the best way to do that is to get feedback on your songs and improve them using this feedback

Again, IMHO, the best way to do this is to share it using SoundCloud and use the reviews section in this very forum (and also review lots of songs, which will also help you improve your own writing)

Once you use this feedback and identify your strongest songs you can start pitching them to publishers

If you sign a deal your song is then what I would consider "published" - and your publisher will have a stake in your song and may or may not want it removed from SoundCloud etc. (mine is happy for them to stay there at the moment)

This is, of course, the first step on a long journey as you now need your song selected (often put "on hold" so nobody else can have it) "cut" (recorded by an artist) and then released - all of which can take a looooong time and fall through at any moment

Copyright is automatic (at least in the UK) so I wouldn't get hung up on protecting your copyright - the risk of someone "stealing" your work is extremely low and if you did write a "hit" a publisher would want you (the goose that lays the golden egg) rather than the song (the golden egg)


So, in short, get a song up on SoundCloud, post it up for a review in the reviews forum and dive in to reviewing other people (which will also increase the number of reviews you get  )

It can be a big step, but I am 100% sure your songwriting will improve, which will increase your chances of success

[nooms]

agree with boydieand id add that by uploading it to soundcloud or yt you are in effect date stamping and self publishing the work. so there is a benefit to uploading.
you can make it ‘private’ on soundcloud which will restrict it only to those who have access to the link such as this forum. 
get some comments and take it down again.
but in reality nobody will come looking for you if they dont know you exist..

giving off 30 second samples of your work wont do the job,  gives off the wrong vibe entirely comes over as precious and self obsessed, which we all probably are to a certain extent but you hav to bite the bullet
there is so much music out there, it really is a massive digital swamp,
but perversly theres little actual ‘stealing’ as most writers want desperatly to be original, we do feed off each other but its a positive  thing, thats how we grow, watching our brothers and sisters stumble or fly we follow in their steps and learn from them and you cant do that in a vacuum.

[markbriscoe]

Thank you Boydie and nooms for your in-depth responses. For me that is wonderful news. As you can probably guess, I am very new to the whole of the music industry (and to music itself for that matter)
Apparently with literature if you upload a poem or short story in its entirety to a website for review, it is then constituted as “published”. And (apparently) publishers won’t go near it. I thought it could be the same for musical uploads also. Seems its not though.

For me it’s a bit of a joke to even consider myself getting anywhere in this industry. I am an artist (painter) so I know how difficult it is to make money from art. There are so many MANY good artists out there all trying to get noticed but so often don’t have success, and I can see it’s pretty much the same with music. I live in Spain but sell to galleries in the US. Sales are still happening slowly, the money is good when they do sell. I’m often amazed that I have managed to make any money at all from art. 

Boydie… So much information from you there, your time is much appreciated. How long do these threads normally stay online before they are erased? Years?

Thanks again
Mark Briscoe

[Dogmax]

Interesting read this but I'm just wondering wouldn't it be in the best interest of the songwriter if the songwriter intended to send their songs to music publishers Not to upload their songs onto music websites like souncloud and others, i mean take for example a major artist is looking for their next big hit wouldn't they be looking for a song that No One has heard, because i would imagine the last thing a major artist would want is their version of a song to be compare to the version of the same song that spent months or longer on websites like souncloud and others.

One other thing does anyone know of any major artist who has had a hit with some one else's song after the song has spent months or longer on these websites.

[Boydie]

A music publisher or artist is MUCH more likely to take on a song that is creating a stir and gaining in popularity on its own

If your song gets heard and the music industry comes looking for you then you are in a very strong position!

Here are some examples of some HUGE hits that were written by other people, which also gives a good insight into the quality of demo required

http://www.vh1.com/music/tuner/2014-01-21/10-demo-versions-of-huge-hits-sung-by-songwriters/

[Dogmax]

Yeah i understand what you're saying Boydie but they are all well established songwriters but for someone who is not known in the music world and wants to get recognise as a songwriter not as a performer wouldn't it be wise to send first to music publishers before deciding on uploading.

But i would still like to know does anyone here know of any major artist who has had a hit with some one else's song after the song has spent months or longer on websites like souncloud and others.

[markbriscoe]

Dogmax… Thanks for your posts. And Boydie I saw the Christina Aguilera hit ‘Beautiful’ in the link you posted. I wonder if that song had been on youtube a long time before Christina Aguilera “covered” it. or sort of made it her own…

Perhaps you’re right Dogmax that a major artist or music producer might not want to take on a song that has already been put out on the web.

I am just guessing that if a major artist/producer DID like a song they found on youtube and it only had a few hundred or a few thousand hits. that they might consider taking it on. Would be nice to hear from someone who knows the industry inside out.

[Dogmax]

Hi markbriscoe warm welcome to you.

There are many many recognise songwriters within the music world that well known singers will only work with and the reason is trust that's probably why most music publishers use those famous words no unsolicited material, so that means you have to play by their rules first thing you do is get the best demo done for your songs, its like any business to get in you have to spend money whether that's spending money on your own recording equipment or paying someone to studio record and along the way you will always be learning new ways to get your songs heard by the right people.

Best of luck to you and remember, keep us inform   

But again i would still like to know does anyone here know of any major artist who has had a hit with some one else's song after the song has spent months or longer on websites like souncloud and others, i know its yawning time   

[Boydie]

I think the closest you are going to get is an ARTIST performing their own songs and then getting signed

Not many people go looking for songs by unknown writers and/or artists (although there is amazing quality out there if you do)

Perhaps you’re right Dogmax that a major artist or music producer might not want to take on a song that has already been put out on the web

Each to their own but this sounds just plain crazy to me (IMHO)

Although the music industry is highly competitive there IS a shortage of HIT songs - so if you have one it won't matter that it has had a few listens on SoundCloud (and so much the better if it has had thousands or millions) - this is a drop in the ocean compared to the potential global audience

The music industry is a BUSINESS run by accountants so a song that already has a proven following will be seen as less of a business risk

I can't emphasise enough how important it is to get INDEPENDENT feedback on your songwriting (not just family and friends) and this forum is the PERFECT place for that

If you are worried then, as NOOMS said, you can post a private link to SoundCloud and remove the song after a period of time


Don't forget, the invention of the toilet seat was a major breakthrough but it was feedback from someone else suggesting a hole in the middle would be a good idea that really made it great 

Write, share, take on board feedback, write, share, take on board feedback (rinse and repeat)

[Dogmax]

True very very true in everything you write but the reality of it is the music world has become a business, we are all artists here and you know as well as i and everyone here that's the truth so what are we going to do about it, don't read my words wrong here, roundabout do change and for the better, now again ill ask the question, does anyone here know of any major artist who has had a hit with some one else's song after the song has spent months or longer on websites like souncloud and others,

[Onelabel]

Just a few points I'll make.

1) that web article link made me smile. It's the kind of thing newspapers pick up on when they want to write about 'unknown' hit songwriters. Almost every song in that list was written by a HUGELY well known writer with a long string of hits already to their name. These are the writers who have artists, producers and a&r guys coming to them.

2) interesting story I heard about Linda Perry. She was already writing for Christina Aguilera and also had a solo career. Christina was round her house going through some potential songs and when finished asked Linda what she was working on for herself. Linda ran through 'I am beautiful' and Christina pleaded with her to let her sing it. In the end Linda relented and let her run through it but Christina was nervous now so said 'don't look at me' when Linda started to play. After finishing Linda was convinced that Christina had to have the song and that extra line was included on the studio recorded version.

3) Don't anyone EVER worry that someone will steal your song. Worry instead that no one is listening to your songs. If someone ever did steal your song then it means you're most likely I'm a really great place and things will very quickly start to work out for you.

4) no matter how great a song is, it's incredibly unlikely it would be picked up via something like YouTube or Soundcloud. The music business is a lot more complex than that.  A song alone is not enough - no matter how good it is. Ed Sheeran was peddling 'The A Team' around publishers for a couple of years and no one was interested. However when the Sheeran 'package' started to take shape then all of a sudden those same publishers 'realised' it's potential. The song hadn't changed, just the perception of it and the hype/buzz from the overall package.

5) occasionally publishers and labels will want a song written by a lesser known writer or band for someone either more famous or perhaps someone they're trying to break. They're not concerned by a few thousand or even hundreds of thousands of views since they know that 99.99% of the people they will be selling the song to won't have heard the original version. Note that as part of the deal they usually insist that all previous versions of the song are taken down from YouTube, soundcloud etc. so as to not confuse their audience. Therefore it's extremely difficult to find the earlier version

6) Boydie also made a very good point that publishers and labels look very positively on songs that are getting good figures. Kind of makes their job easier to sell the song internally (within their own organisation, to the artist etc.) if it's already getting good numbers

[Boydie]

Almost every song in that list was written by a HUGELY well known writer with a long string of hits already to their name. These are the writers who have artists, producers and a&r guys coming to them

Which highlights the issue of the quality you are competing against when pitching

It was the Cathy Dennis "Toxic" that struck a chord with me - how her demo version captured the whole "feel" of the final release

I appreciate it is difficult to ignore hindsight BUT I think anyone hearing that demo would think it is a potential hit song - this is the level those pitching need to get to to stand a chance

Note that as part of the deal they usually insist that all previous versions of the song are taken down from YouTube, soundcloud etc. so as to not confuse their audience. Therefore it's extremely difficult to find the earlier version

@DOGMAX - I think this will be why you never find a real example of what you are looking for - there are just soooo many potential "unpublished" hits floating around so if they are taken down after a song is released they would be virtually impossible to find retrospectively

If When I write my own "hit" I will personally send you a copy of my demo after Kylie releases it   

[Onelabel]

Yep and it's not just the quality you're competing with but also the existing reputation those writers have. For example you look at the hits and millions of single sales Cathy Dennis already had under her belt before 'Toxic'. Just off the top of my head Kylie's 'can't get you out of my head' sold gajillions.

it's like we're all playing 5 a side footy on Wimbledon Common and trying to get signed by a Premiership team.  Not impossible but bloody hard

[Dogmax]

Note that as part of the deal they usually insist that all previous versions of the song are taken down from YouTube, soundcloud etc. so as to not confuse their audience. Therefore it's extremely difficult to find the earlier version

@DOGMAX - I think this will be why you never find a real example of what you are looking for - there are just soooo many potential "unpublished" hits floating around so if they are taken down after a song is released they would be virtually impossible to find retrospectively

If When I write my own "hit" I will personally send you a copy of my demo after Kylie releases it   
[/quote]

Nice one man but did you ever hear the old saying, reality love a conversation    haha, and Kylie as an artists never grew up until she met Nick Cave, as i said, Nice one Man.