Ashes and Diamonds

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bylanduck

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« on: August 08, 2014, 06:19:45 AM »
Long time since I've posted a song, been in full swing with the band, practicing and practicing and practicing. Here's a new one though. I feel like I may have overdone it with the production, it's hard for me to step back at this point. Please let me know what you think, about the music, lyrics, production, arrangement, etc.. Thanks!


https://soundcloud.com/bret-dylan/ashes-and-diamonds


Ashes and Diamonds

Mirror oh mirror your voice is so sweet
Velvet and silk to my ears
Your words taste like strawberry swollen with seeds
And yet I find - I find thorns in my tears

Mirror oh mirror you tell me I'm rich
You show me the glittering gold
Ashes and diamonds have me believe
There for the taking
Sparkled and dangling

Say it's a lie
Say it for me
Say it's a lie
That's what I need
That - that might just be the truest these eyes could see
I'm tired and worn - I'm torn up inside
Still I want to believe

Mirror oh mirror why won't you speak?
Your rainclouds have come out to play
The silence is thunder
Your smoke makes me weak
My sadness was always our game

Say it's a lie
Say it for me
Say it's a lie
That's what I need
That - that might just be the truest these eyes could see
I'm tired and worn - I'm torn up inside
Still I want to believe

Say it's a lie
Say it for me
I need it now
Say it for me
That's what I need

tokenangmoh

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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2014, 06:36:28 AM »
Hi.

This one's mixed for me.

Lyric-wise there are some great lines:
Quote
Mirror oh mirror your voice is so sweet
Velvet and silk to my ears
Is a great start. And the continuation of the mirror speaking (which is a great idea) in verse 3 is very good too.

And I think the first four lines of the chorus work very well.

The rest of the lyrics I struggle with a bit.
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strawberry swollen with seeds
would just get stuck in my teeth. (And wouldn't the plural be better, to match the plural "words", "thorns" and "tears"?)

I can't make meaning out of
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Ashes and diamonds have me believe
There for the taking
Sparkled and dangling
Do you mean "They're for the taking"? That would make a little more sense to me... But even then, I don't know why I would want to take ashes. And "sparkled" is odd for me... "Sparkling"?

I don't know why the mirror has smoke suddenly in V3. OK there's the phrase "smoke and mirrors", but you seem to be working with a sound / weather metaphor at that point, and it seems wedged in.

Obviously you're not aiming for literal lyrics here, but some of them feel like they're resisting interpretation.

Indeed, I'm just not quite clear on the nature of the singer's relationship with the mirror. I get that he's tempted to picture himself as amazing and wishes he could see past that, but it gets a bit muddy for me around
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That - that might just be the truest these eyes could see
What does "that" refer to?

Music-wise, I like the playing, the riffs and the change of pace when the chorus comes in. But the chorus energy drops away too soon for me at "That - that might be". And I'm not quite sure you get it all back for the last line of the chorus. Because of this I prefer the last chorus and playout: it sustains the energy better.

This isn't the kind of song that needs perfect pitching, but there are a couple of notes in the vocal that are slightly too flat. Otherwise it's well sung.

Hope that's of some use and ignore to taste,
Matt

Neil C

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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2014, 01:54:50 PM »
Hi Bret,

Liked your ambition and you can tell you've spent considerable investment in it. Catchy verse and liked the way you structured song between quiet and louder bits.

Thoughts:  perhaps the guitars could a bit meaner on the chorus, and I think you've done something to your vocals which sound slightly over compresssed on occasions. Towards the end ( 2.20 ) your vocals tend to dominate the mix.
Good luck with it.
 :)
Neil
songwriter of no repute..

TheButcher

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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2014, 02:47:12 PM »
yep, it deserves "indie pop". "ambitious". maybe there s one or two melodic twist too much; defenitely sth that needs to be listened to more than once.


bylanduck

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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2014, 10:44:22 AM »
Hey Tokenangmoh, thanks for the quality comments. I really appreciate you sharing your interpretation of the lyrics and thoughts on them, and I very much look forward to your lyrical feedback down the road! You definitely have a keen eye.

"And yet I find thorns in my tears" was actually my rewrite of the original line "and yet I find thorns in my teeth" - exactly as you suggested. I changed it because my friend and bandmate wasn't too excited about all the different objects showing up in the song, especially in this non-linear fashion. I agree with you though, teeth is a stronger line and I'm going to change it back.

"They're for the taking" is correct, yes. I guess I went with "there for the taking" because it implies they are right *there* in front of me, within reach, rather than just stating "they are" for the taking. I guess that could be confusing, but it seemed like you picked up on what it meant. As far as ashes, I don't know why I'd want ashes either, it doesn't make sense does it? But it's a magic mirror, maybe I'd want anything from a magic mirror..

"Sparkling and dangling" was a bit too clunky to sing, so I went with sparkled. But I understand where you're coming from.

I like your point about the smoke being wedged in. Smoke and mirrors was on my mind, as well as just the truly dire situation this is for the protagonist (me I guess). It doesn't keep the weather / sound metaphor, but it's elemental, like rain and thunder.. maybe there was lightning too?

Interesting comment on the relationship with the mirror. So there's been a bit of a gender split with these lyrics. Guys I show these to tend to read it as the mirror is simply my reflection, while women tend to read it as two characters interacting, one of them that happens to be a magic mirror. Both are valid interpretations, but my intention with this song was the latter. I do like how it's ambiguous and can be read in different ways.

Does that add a bit more to "that - that might just be"? My friend had a problem with that line as well, he wasn't sure what it referred to. Again, oddly enough, the women I talked to weren't phased by that line at all. It's kind of fascinating actually.

I think holding out the second chorus one bar longer on the 5 chord might give it more a bit more punch, but the quick clipping of the chorus energy for "that that might just be" was a conscious decision. I guess I wanted the desperation to be short bursts that finally releases completely at the end rather than throughout the song. I appreciate your point though.

Again, thanks for the great comments Tokenanmogh, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts in the future!

Bret

Valleyproductionsuk

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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2014, 01:41:22 PM »
Hi Bret,

generally speaking, for me this is a good piece of work that could be made great with better production. Not sure if this was recorded in a studio or at home, but the sound is generally very good just without that extra production that makes a song like this great. The verses are fantastic, they really put you in a 'place' and the chorus is catchy. As previously mentioned, I would maybe try make things sound a bit bigger in the chorus (dirtier guitar/lower vocals to let the instruments push through) and the whole thing could do with some subtle vocal tuning (perhaps just the backing), - things are fine in the verse as it has that feel but the chorus suffers from build up of out of pitch doubles and harmonies, perhaps a bit much 'mid' build up in the vocal eq as well. Simple fixes really especially if you do record these yourself.

All around good song, a couple if tweaks on the vocal stuf and for me this is a goer!

bylanduck

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« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 06:30:05 PM »
Valleyproductions, thanks for the kind comments!

I did record this at home, and I honestly don't know what I'm doing when I'm mixing... I'm still relatively new to the home studio scene. I know how to find sounds I like, in guitars, bass, drums etc., but I don't know how to bring the best out of each instrument when it comes time to mixing. I have a basic understanding of EQ, but I usually use presets in Cubase, or mess with the 4 point EQ for each track. I know compression can make something sound better, but really I don't know how or why it works... I've read some stuff online, but I'm still not all that sure how to find a balance. Mixing as well is tough. Do you have any suggestions, any online reading, or pointers on how to improve my production technique? I listened to some of your songs and they sound incredibly professional, I only wish I could pull that off.. Even if my stuff didn't sound that professional, I would kill to know how to make my stuff sound big and clean..

Valleyproductionsuk

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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 09:06:08 PM »
No problem! Very kind of you, i think we're all learning as we go really, it's just a case of listening and knowing how to use your tools. The more you do it the better you'll get. Sites like 'homerecording.com' and 'gearslutz' in particular are a library of almost everything you need regarding 'how to's.

Compression is used to level out volumes, help things sit in a mix without going too loud or too quiet, but a complicated thing to get your ear around properly (i still haven't).
   
With EQ, you should mainly be using it to cut any unwanted frequencies (as a starting point), things like 'high pass filtering' (removing some low frequency) on the vocals for example, lets the instruments which really should sit in those frequency ranges (like the bass) have space to be heard in the mix without things getting muddy from all those low rumbles you picked up in the vocal mic. Same goes for most guitars and basically most instruments that shouldn't have very low and sub fequencies. Clear some room for the kick and the bass.
    Similarly, low pass filtering (removing high frequency - go figure) on electric guitars for example gives everything at the top end (vocals, cymbals, snare fizz, etc) space and clears things up a bit.

If a specific instrument has a funny tone or a dodgy frequency on its own (sounds muffled for example, or a harsh high frequency somewhere), try slowly sweeping an eq bump along the frequencies until you find the bad area (sounds worst), then pull it the other way a bit into a dip, but not too much and use your ears, don't kill the sound, just do it until the offending frequencies are less prominent and the whole thing sounds balanced.
Getting things sounding good at the source is the most important thing for a good sound. Try different mic positions and settings etc, to make sure it's as good as you can get it to sound. Keep your mind  on how that sound will play a part and sit in it's own space in the mix best you can.

Effects are a whole other story but again you figure this stuff out over time. More or less all the info i've had about recording and mixing is from googling any question i had about it, those sites above ^^ come up a lot. Finding a balance in the mix is easy once you have everything recorded correctly, and processed properly (and tastefully) with eq, compression, reverb, etc, but that's easier said than done.

 I think the quality of your recording is decent, so you're definately on the right track, the rest will come with time and a helping hand from google?! I'm no expert myself at all, as i said it's a learning curve, you'll remember your previous mistakes and have 'EUREKA!' moments when something suddenly makes sense.

Hope that helps! Good luck and great song!


Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2014, 01:50:12 PM »
I've listened to this a fair few times now over the last week.
It isn't the kind of thing I listen to any more now that I've got old and mellow, so I didn't want to rush into any bad judgement.

So, having given it a fair crack now, i have to say that I think it's a very good song. It wears its interesting structure well and has clearly been lovingly worked on. The mélodies are strong in the verse and the chorus begins with a very catchy few hook lines.
I was a bit undecided on the way the chorus developed at first, but now I think the drop in dynamic and pace works well. In fact the line which Tokenangmoh wasn't quite sure about - that-that might be etc troubled me too at first but now I really like it!

Liked the riff in the outro a lot too.

Production sounds great to me but I'm no expert on that side of things.

Really good song.
Take it easy.

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