Watch, if you aspire to succeed!

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Boydie

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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2014, 11:29:37 PM »
Interesting debate indeed

I think the cooking analogy is actually perfect here...

Some people cook fantastic meals by cooking on instinct, try out different ideas etc.

However, if you want to become a top chef then you "learn your trade", you learn what flavours go together, you learn presentation etc. etc.

As with songwriting there are many homespun meals that I love and many top chef meals I would hate

If you want to open a restaurant there are certain rules you would do well to follow

There are "game changers" (eg Heston) but these game changers know the rules before they break them

There clearly is no right or wrong and much will depend on your own personality

If you are already writing songs or lyrics I am willing to bet you are ALREADY following plenty of rules (rhyme, meter, rhythm, a strong concept, a beginning, middle and an end to your "story" etc.)

Some people like to be free from THINKING about the rules (but they have probably absorbed the rules via osmosis from a lifetime listening to music - including the Beatles and Queen)

Some people like to analyse, understand and consciously apply the rules

Either approach is perfectly valid and it doesn't alter the fact that the essential ingredients need to be top quality - how you cook these ingredients is what makes your song unique and don't forget that it is ALL about the end product - nobody cares how you got there!!!!
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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2014, 12:10:00 AM »
There`s nothing much to debate really! you get any top songwriter ,in any genre, their going to tell you the same things .....years ago before i was ever interested in all this ,i had friends in the music game....i played a bit of drums for some and was a `roadie` at times. :)....and i remember them going to publishers and that...and being told to go away and work at it.........in other words...we like what your trying to do,not what your offering!

This is point of the video....what the industry(the money making side of it) are looking for,and how you achieve it...yes there must be the raw talent....but present it in the wrong way,it will be rejected..

The talk he gave was about achieving success through writing number 1 songs and songs that radio stations play,,,that fit in with advertising that make the station money and ultimately pay a writer/publisher/record label and artist.

If you ignore the rules ,the structures, vs.c.vs.c.m8.c.outro....etc....they won`t get anywhere,if you don`t appeal to the largest buyer of these songs ,,women...they won`t get anywhere...

It`s not that hard to understand........he`s only teaching what industry people both before him and during his career have learnt  through trial and error,,and here it is for free on You Tube.....!!! 

benjo

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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2014, 06:10:13 PM »

 yeah as I said earlier it is all common sense if your in the writing game
 and with the vs c vs c vs m8 and so on its more like tradition of what fits
 but if we went off everything being done by the book and always by the rules
 we would still be listening to bing Crosby who I think did white Christmas
 a lovely family song I think that is still the top seller not to sure though
 and I don't think we'd of had rock n roll, punk metal and many other kick down door
 material oh and don't forget rap I mean that is a weird one
 I mean who the hell started putting rap in normal songs   GENIUS IDEA
 this guy is telling us the obvious and getting paid for doing that

 all this guy is doing is telling us what you can google
 and I don't believe what he says about woman buy 50% and they make men buy
 the other 50% I think yeah woman no argument
 but men do love a good record too
 all I'm saying is this guy says he only writes for woman that's all he has to do
 I bet not every lyric he's ever written was for women

 yes he figured out that is the most money to be had and went into it because he can
 he can afford to target one specific thing and have success because he's in the club
 but can we only afford to write like that with one target in mind
 why always aim for the bulls eye when there are plenty of other numbers on the board
 
 I just don't agree with him if an amazing band came along tomorrow
 they could throw all your structures out of the window  ( THE PEOPLE DECIDE )
 I say good luck on that road to perfection without that leg up on the ladder
 its a hard enough road as it is, but even though you listen to this guy and apply
 all his advice doesn't mean you'll be better than the next guy
 the music industry is always looking for different

 and the cookery thing do you know some of the best meals are accidents
 and some of the nicest meals are mash ups
 
                                 I do honestly wish you luck with this though
   
 
 





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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2014, 06:43:16 PM »
 :D
Where do i begin..

You clearly have not really listened to the video,to what he actually said,or else you would not posted that twaddle.

He`s not talking about bands,he mentions people saying how come these old guys have been consistently writing hits for 20 years...and they're, there....he`s one of them.............

So, recap....hit songs, written by hit songwriters with longevity ,for radio.

He`s not on about bands and stuff like that....he`s targeting a particular field of songwriting.and what the industry looks for,what gets play time.what gets to number one.

Ignore him.be like the morning man....yeah they didn`t get me,i was ahead of my time. :)

And this..." and the cookery thing do you know some of the best meals are accidents
 and some of the nicest meals are mash ups"

I'm a chef, and the best meals are never accidents!

benjo

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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2014, 07:32:14 PM »

 as I said earlier we'll have to agree to disagree
 because to me that is twaddle what your saying

 be like the morning man I'm ahead of my time  ( WHAT )
 
 I'm not starry eyed enough to be put in a trance by him
 so I'm the morning man he's not taking my money for telling me the obvious

 you don't seem to want to accept that we all have different opinions
 I gave mine,  and its twaddle in your expert opinion
 to me your being like the Jehovah's witness your word is law and that of who you follow
 I might remind you of your original post

                                         WATCH IF YOU ASPIRE TO SUCCEED

 maybe you should have put,  hey take a look at this vid and make your own mind up
 it comes across to me like if you don't your going nowhere
 and when I come on to your thread I give my opinion and you can't accept
 that some one can think for themselves or dare to disagree with your views
 I suppose i'll just have to take it on the chin,  I'm doomed in the writing game
 and you're headed for ££££££££££millions in the bank Ker-ching hope you remember me
 
 I've watched Jamie Oliver and some of the stuff he does is amazing and mash ups

 the meals you might make now are maybe not accidents or I hope not
 because they will be done to order,
 I meant the original recipe of some will definitely be accidents
 something has ended up in there and its worked so it stays

            you can't start a thread then lose your temper with people who feel differently
         
                                       as I keep saying its just my opinion

       
 
 

S.T.C

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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2014, 07:51:09 PM »
Firstly no ones lost their temper,,not me anyway,,

" I've watched Jamie Oliver and some of the stuff he does is amazing and mash ups"

No it`s not mate...he`s stood on the shoulders of giants ,,and used techniques well practiced,,,,,and you think he`s made a mash up.....

You've clearly got issues...i'd hate to see your face when someone sprinkles too much salt on your chips... :D

Like i said,the guys talking about a particular aspect of songwritng blah.blah.blah........and you simply don`t like to be told..it`s as simple as that....arrogance!

benjo

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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2014, 08:19:11 PM »

 I think you've some how got this twisted around
 
 your thread telling people,   WATCH IF YOU ASPIRE TO SUCCEED

 there is your arrogance right there,
 you and your leader are saying this is what you must do
 and that was one of the things that I hated about him
 he came across as very arrogant too

 you've completely lost me with the salt and chips thing

 plus when you invite people / tell people to come in and give an opinion
 if I'd known I wasn't aloud to have one I wouldn't have come in lesson learned

 plus I wasn't expecting the insults for having my own views

      YOUR THREAD SO WHO'S ARROGANT, 




 

Boydie

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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2014, 08:44:22 PM »
I think your views are actually closer than you realise  ;D  ;)

Quote
and the cookery thing do you know some of the best meals are accidents
 and some of the nicest meals are mash ups

I completely agree with this, and it supports the analogy

If you take this approach you MAY end up accidentally cooking the perfect meal - or it may taste awful

If you did cook an amazing meal you would want to remember how you did it and may even want to tell others how you did it - or adapt it next time

This to me is the formation of the "rules"


A professional chef needs to turn out top notch food night after night

The chef is not being "boring" by following rules as there is still plenty of room for flair, but he knows that a certain steak, cooked at a certain temp, in a certain way, served with a certain sauce will taste amazing


The same applies to songwriting, if you follow the rules you are increasing your chances of being "consistently" commercial in your writing


I also think BENJO is spot on about music evolving - and I think the rules evolve with the trends

Something ground breaking does come along every now and again but evolution is more common


Unfortunately the labels are so risk averse nowadays that from a commercial perspective I doubt we will see anything truly "different" hitting the mainstream any time soon - the mantra seems to be "different - but not too different"

Fortunately the internet is filling this void (call me maybe, gangnam, as well as less commercial artists) but the labels are quick to exploit a new trend and so the new rules are written!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:46:26 PM by Boydie »
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S.T.C

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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2014, 08:55:20 PM »
" plus when you invite people / tell people to come in and give an opinion
 if I'd known I wasn't aloud to have one I wouldn't have come in lesson learned"

I didn't  invite opinions ,but everyone is welcome to give one..i also said `aspire.`..the funny thing is the few that have commented ,have said they gained something from it,i certainly did , and they've also confirmed the point of the talk,it`s good source material for the commercial songsmith...but i wish you well with your own philosophies.

benjo

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« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2014, 09:45:28 PM »

 and I wish you well with yours

 when you start a thread you invite opinion
 you need to get used to them not all being
 bullied into your way of thinking
 I know I won't be

 I totally agree with boydie a lot of sense made there
 in the very fact we just don't agree on this subject
 but your like a dog with a bone and won't accept it
 
 you make out like I will fail and you will succeed
 because you listen to this guy
 it just doesn't work like that at all
 
 I bet pharrell Williams wish he'd of listened to him
 then he would have been   HAPPY

S.T.C

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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2014, 09:55:39 PM »
! ok Benjo ,now your going all `single white female` ::)

you make out like I will fail and you will succeed
 because you listen to this guy
 it just doesn't work like that at all

Where do you get that from?
It`s like talking to a woman(sorry women) you know what i mean ;)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 10:00:37 PM by songsthatcry »

benjo

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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2014, 09:59:37 PM »
          PS,   I THINK THIS SHOWS A FAIR MIX,  DON'T GIVE UP ON OTHER SONGS


 
What Are The Top 11 Best Selling Singles of All-Time?

Random Celebrity Article

By Geoffrey Golden on February 12, 2012
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The Beatles were apparently really nervous when they met their idol, Elvis Presley.  Perhaps John and Paul would have been less "shook up" if they knew someday they would have a song on the top 11 best selling singles list along with The King. So, what is the biggest selling single of all time?  Let's count 'em down, music lovers:

11. ABBA – "Fernando" - 10 million copies sold

Swedish pop group ABBA has their 1st non-album single with the song "Fernando," which became ABBA's biggest selling single of all time. ABBA's "Fernando" sold 6,000,000 copies in 1976 alone. The single also appeared on a number of ABBA's Greatest Hits albums.

10. The Beatles – "I Want to Hold Your Hand" – 12 million copies sold

The song "I Want to Hold Your Hand" was written by songwriting duo John Lennon and Paul McCartney, the first Beatles record to make use of four-track equipment. Manager Brian Epstein instructed Lennon and McCartney to write a song with the American market in mind, resulting in "I Want to Hold Your Hand." The single eventually became The Beatles' best-selling single worldwide.

9. Baccara – "Yes Sir, I Can Boogie" – 18 million copies sold

This song made it big internationally but did not chart in the United States. "Yes Sir, I Can Boogie" is a hit single recorded by the Spanish vocal duo Baccara with a distinct flavor of disco. The single became a major hit across Europe.

8. The Ink Spots – "If I Didn't Care" – 19 million copies sold

Songwriter Jack Lawrence received negative feedback after letting his friends listen to "If I Didn't Care," prior to it being recorded. Lawrence persevered and The Ink Spots recorded the hit song in 1939. The Platters, The Hilltoppers, David Cassidy and Connie Francis recorded other covers of the song.

7. Zager and Evans – "In the Year 2525″ – 20 million copies sold

The song caught the interest during the late 60′s with its theme of a world doomed by its overdependence on dehumanizing current and future technologies. Zager and Evans remain the only act with a number one hit but no other chart single on both the U.S. and UK singles charts. Authors of the book "The Worst Rock and Roll Records of All Time" places the song "In the Year 2525″ at number six on their list of the 50 worst rock-and-roll singles. "Best-selling" doesn't always mean "good."

6. USA for Africa – "We Are the World" – 20 million copies sold

"We Are the World" was written by Michael Jackson and Lionel Ritchie as a charity single to raise funds for African famine relief. The idea of the single came from activist Harry Belafonte and fundraiser Ken Kragen. An impressive group of musical stars gathered to record the record and this was the only single released from the album. "We Are the World" is the fastest-selling American pop single in history.

5. Elvis Presley – "It's Now or Never" – 25 million copies sold

Elvis Presley heard the song "There's No Tomorrow," recorded by singer Tony Martin, while stationed in Germany with the U.S. Army. Presley commissioned songwriters Aaron Schroeder and Wally Gold to rewrite the lyrics of the song for him. "It's Now or Never" was released in 1960 and became a number-one record in the U.S. and the UK, spending nine weeks at the top of the charts – thankyouverymuch.

4. Bill Haley & His Comets – "Rock Around the Clock" – 25 million copies sold

Bill Haley did not write "Rock Around the Clock." The song was written by Max C. Freedman and James E. Myers, with Haley's version the most popular version recorded. Songwriter Myers claimed the song had been written for Haley, but Haley was unable to record the song himself until April 1954.

3 & 2. Bing Crosby – "Silent Night" and "White Christmas" – 30 million copies sold

The popular Christmas carol "Silent Night" went to new fame when Bing Crosby recorded it. The Crosby version of this beloved Christmas carol has maintained its popularity for years, and has been recorded by over 300 artists including Crosby, Mahalia Jackson, Enya, Stevie Nicks, Andrea Bocelli, Susan Boyle and an instrumental version by Mannheim Steamroller.  "White Christmas," ironically written by famed Jewish songwriter Irving Berlin, became one of Crosby's signature hits.

1. Elton John - "Candle in the Wind 1997″/"Something About the Way You Look Tonight" - 37 million copies sold Sir Elton John did a remake of his hit "Candle in the Wind" in honor of Princess Diana after her untimely death. Bernie Taupin rewrote the lyrics for John and famed Beatles producer George Martin produced the song. Besides John's single capturing the number one single sales of all time, the single became the first song in history to reach the top in the four major countries in the music industry: United Kingdom, Japan, United States, and Germany.


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    give it,  all this, tantrums and tears because I don't agree with you ( THERE THERE )



beckylucythomas

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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2014, 10:35:02 PM »
It`s like talking to a woman(sorry women) you know what i mean ;)

Oooooooooohhhhh...... You best not try selling songs to women making statements like that!......   :o

tone

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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2014, 11:11:59 PM »
Cool it guys. Differences of opinion are to be expected on a forum. I don't like the tone (geddit) you're beginning to take with one another.

So have a cuddle or do whatever proper men do when they make up. I think I missed that meeting... ;)
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tina m

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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2014, 11:22:02 PM »
stc i think you want to watch a bit how you are coming across since youve paid money for these pro demos & entered 'N ville' bcos you are coming over a bit big headed like youve left us all behind....
the way your arguing like your  superior  with benjo is not helping or  being derogatry to women
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:44:49 PM by tinam »
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