[S.T.C]

I dunno - I think STC makes some interesting points.

You can't deny that many successful songs share common characteristics. But like Boydie says, they're not enough on their own to make your song a hit.

You need good melody and good lyrics first and foremost. Then you need a good singer or personality to deliver the song. You need an interesting arrangement played by competent players, and a good mix/ master.

Once you have all of the above, you need contacts or a heavy dose of luck to get your song anywhere near a mainstream recording artist.

But, if money is the primary goal, you could do a lot worse than follow the advice in the video.

I just think it's a shame that risk-takers are all but absent in today's music industry. Thank god for the Bjorks and Tom Waits of this world. Someone out there has to make it their business to break as many of "the rules" as possible while still making brilliant music that their fans want to hear.

Yes, thats the point ,you have to have written a hit song before,you even think about what structre pattern it fits...although that should be included in the write anyway....but lyrically the story must draw the listener in and keep them there   and take them on the journey...Ralph said it better in the vid.

And i agree if money is  a motivation ,this dude is talking about number 1 hit songs,,,and financial rewards go hand in hand with that.

As to the final point..i think theres room for everyone...Radiohead and Morrissey have massive followings, their not restrained or handicapped in their songwriting by the things in the vid....they can operate outside those conventions .

So yes risk taking, is an essential part of it all. and when it becomes mainstream/successful, it in turn will be copied. a new formula will have been created , and so it`s goes on.

[Boydie]

Well said STC, and I completely agree

I am not sure what you disagreed with in my post as I think we are saying the same thing 

Just because I didn't particularly take to Ralph personally (and not really based on anything) I did hang on every word and I think he is spot on - so much so I paid for his book, which is even better than the vids 

I have been highlighting the key sections so may be able to post a summary at some point

[S.T.C]

Well said STC, and I completely agree

I am not sure what you disagreed with in my post as I think we are saying the same thing 

Just because I didn't particularly take to Ralph personally (and not really based on anything) I did hang on every word and I think he is spot on - so much so I paid for his book, which is even better than the vids 

I have been highlighting the key sections so may be able to post a summary at some point

I think i meant this...`Don't forget that Ralph is all about the ££££££££ `
which is true, i can`t deny that and he doesn't hide the fact either.... but i think it`s deeper than that,, he has a childlike love of melody and like i said,i don`t think he ever forgot from when he was a kid ,what made him happy...you can see it in his face whens picking sections of these songs and highlighting what the writer got so right,, thats all really !

[Boydie]

Aha - I think it might be a different video that I watched

I couldn't watch this one as it was blocked on youtube for me but I thought it was the one I had seen (which is the Music Matters seminar)

In this video (and in his book) he is unashamadly focused on the ££££££

I don't see this as a bad thing at all - I think if you are writing for money then there is a specific way to right

I also agree with BENJO that if someone had posted the lyrics for Single Ladies in the lyric section they would not go down well, perhaps even a demo of the song would have been picked apart

This is not surprising as most people would also pick a lot of the current hit songs apart

Luckily there is room for all

[S.T.C]

Maybe Boydie,,but i suspect he says the same things!

anyway here are the lyrics. for single ladies,,lets have a look

All the single ladies, all the single ladies
All the single ladies, all the single ladies
All the single ladies, all the single ladies
All the single ladies

Now put your hands up
Up in the club, we just broke up, I'm doing my own little thing.
Decided to dip and now you wanna trip
'Cause another brother noticed me

I'm up on him, he up on me
Don't pay him any attention
Just cried my tears, for three good years
Ya can't be mad at me

'Cause if you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Don't be mad once you see that he want it
'Cause if you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh x2

If you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Don't be mad once you see that he want it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it

I got gloss on my lips, a man on my hips
Got me tighter in my Dereon jeans
Acting up, drink in my cup
I can care less what you think

I need no permission, did I mention
Don't pay him any attention
'Cause you had your turn, and now you gonna learn
What it really feels like to miss me

'Cause if you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Don't be mad once you see that he want it
'Cause if you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh

If you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Don't be mad once you see that he want it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh

Don't treat me to the things of the world
I'm not that kind of girl
Your love is what I prefer, what I deserve

Here's a man that makes me, then takes me
And delivers me to a destiny, to infinity and beyond
Pull me into your arms, say I'm the one you want
If you don't, you'll be alone, and like a ghost, I'll be gone

All the single ladies, all the single ladies
All the single ladies, all the single ladies
All the single ladies, all the single ladies
All the single ladies

Now put your hands up
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

'Cause if you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Don't be mad once you see that he want it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Oh, oh, oh.

If you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Don't be mad once you see that he want it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it, hey hey hey



Read more: Beyonce Knowles - Single Ladies Lyrics | MetroLyrics

[Boydie]

There's a lot of repetition  . 

In all seriousness if I had seen these lyrics without knowing it was a megahit I may have said something like:

The song is relying heavily on one good line: "if you like it then you should have put a ring on it"

I do think this is a spectacular lyric line as it sums up the whole concept of the song perfectly, which is why the repetition works

[S.T.C]

I would have quickly noticed that `all the single ladies` is a good phrase,,appeals to females esp if they are single ...would have got the idea there would be some kind of key change between the two verse`s.

This would have been standout..`'Cause if you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it, then you shoulda put a ring on it`

I would have winced at this line `And delivers me to a destiny, to infinity and beyond`

Its easy once you know the tune to be wise after the event ,and say.,oh yeah thats a great lyric etc..
but overall if this was a new posting on here i would have honestly thought,i don`t quite see how all of it works, but i see plenty of potential in it ,to be a catchy tune!

[benjo]

 if this lyric had been put on the forum like boydie said
 it would have been ripped,  yeah in a nice polite kind of way
 but it would be,   in fact when he plays it on the vid I got sick of the rep
 and even he says just as your getting sick of it, the bridge
 but I was sick of it long before the bridge
 
 yeah the   ALL THE SINGLE LADIES   that's the shout out / call back part
 but when you say I say the same its because that's MHO on it
 I do get that you have bought in to him and I fully understand and respect that
 but for me he's just stating the obvious and yes making a fortune from it

 the hooks in the lyrics are there all right no one could deny it
 I feel sorry for those people who have paid £100 to listen to him state the obvious

 plus it does say on the post header if you want to be successful read this
 it could just be that I don't want to follow the norm or what is seen to be the norm
 to me its like those people who come round telling me there is a god
 
 sorry if it upsets you but I totally disagree with him and don't see how he will make
 you a success just my honest opinion
 

 






 

[S.T.C]

Oh they paid more than a hundred..i wrote hundreds.

Those lyrics would not get ripped by me!

He`s not saying he will make you a success ,he`s saying if you want to sell more flowers,set your stall out this way, because as an experienced flower seller this is what i`ve learnt,,,

I think you let the cat out of the bag.you don`t like being told, even when someone clearly knows what theyre talking about...with reference to `hit` song writing!

also to correct you Benjo mate..`plus it does say on the post header if you want to be successful read this`

i used the word aspire...we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars!

[benjo]

 ha ha ha ha ha  STC MY FRIEND,

 I had to laugh,  yes I do understand what he is saying completely
 but what I am trying to say is there are more ways than that to sell your flowers
 and if you only concentrate on selling to one person you'll miss all the other people
 
 so lets say you concentrate all your efforts on writing just for woman yeah
 come on be honest with yourself you say we're in the gutter but your looking at the stars
 while your looking at the stars I've written 20 songs that are about motor bikes
 for men, and sold ten of them,  and I may have even been lucky enough to
 pen a nice song for the woman that doesn't do as well,

 my point being I disagree with him saying just write for woman
 especially if its not easy for you to do,
 that's all I'm saying, I can sit all day focused on a song for woman and miss a good one
 for whatever else,

 also STC mate,  yes I know what the wording was on the post but I didn't think you'd
 hang me for putting it in a similar way,  WATCH IF YOU ASPIRE TO SUCCEED
 be honest how many do you think will succeed from his advice,

 I say BE CAREFUL NOT TO MISS ANY OF THOSE BEAUTIFUL STARS YOUR LOOKING AT

              BY ONLY FOCUSSING ON ONE EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE BRIGHTEST

    just my opinion bud         

[S.T.C]

 " my point being I disagree with him saying just write for woman
 especially if its not easy for you to do,"

I don`t have a problem with that.are you referring to yourself?      i would imagine even writing one song thats any good about a motorbike would be a nightmare..

He`s told you an important stat, one i already knew actually..that females purchase far more music than males...so write about things that they relate too..you stand a better chance for success..

" be honest how many do you think will succeed from his advice,".........well you won`t,that`s for sure!

Welcome to my universe.

[Sing4me88]

I have been following this thread with keen interest and I guess I'm ready to chip in with my 2 cents that isn't even worth.... while 2 cents!

Firstly I see a lot of sense in what pragmatic posters like Boydie and STC are saying. The best way to succeed is usually to do 'what works'- how do you know 'what works? Well ask someone who has been there done that and made a shit load of money that they didn't even care about getting the t-shirt. Ralph clearly falls into that category.

I think Benjo is coming for a purist kinda position- one premised on artistry rather than commercial viability. This is perfect if the aim is to make songs that you like and think are 'nice' but it is commercial suicide. By all means rip up the rule book but know that in doing so you are probably ripping up whatever little chances you had of succeeding in the first place. If you are successful artist or have access to already established artists then you can take this risk- as a writer I think trying to tear up the rules would simply be shooting yourself in the foot. Labels and publishers want songs that make MONEY- that is the primary motivating factor not if its is DIFFERENT or NICE but that it MAKES MONEY! How do they know it'll make money? Because it follows the 'rules' that others have to make successful songs.

This video simply imparts knowledge and a few 'tricks of the trade' from a very knowledgeable and successful person- nothing more nothing less. This video won't make you a hit songwriter- that potential needs to be there already IMHO- even if buried deep inside amongst a heap of dreams and ambitions. What the advice imparted allows is for someone to hon their skills and reach their potential. After all I watch Gordon Ramsey cooking some hell of feasts, doesn't mean I'm gonna rustle it up nonchalantly in the kitchen every night.

Also have to agree with benjo that I think 'Single Ladies' would have been massacred on the lyrics page. Sometimes I think the beauty/curse of a forum is that it is open to so many styles, flavours and tastes. If someone posts a lyric - and lets face it lyrics on their own are difficult to 'click' with at the best of times - that is simple, full of hook and catchy but also dumbed down and geared towards commercial Pop there is a tendency to almost engage in lyrical snobbery because it hasn't got the finesse of Wordsworth BUT the point the cork sniffers are missing is that it DOESN'T HAVE TO, NEED TO or WANT TO- it's geared at Will.i.am fans not William Shakespeare or his fans.

I guess the perfect example of this is the 'worst lyrics ever' thread in the bar. Some people have posted lyrics that I actually really like because they are so left off field they are genius in their own way. I've also posted some lyrics in that thread that I thought were absurd but were from songs that others really loved. Again personal preference comes into the ix.

So in totality if you want to write a NICE song for YOUR ears then f%^k Ralph and his video- just write what you want to hear. If however you want to 'make it' as a writer you certainly could do a lo worse than watch the vid!

[benjo]

 yeah sing4me88

 you make some really great points there, but for me you just can't say if you want to succeed
 and be a proper writer then that's the way to go
 I honestly don't for one minute believe that there are rules and if there are
 it is to know the right person,

 I do respect all your views I really do,  but some follow and some lead
 and some like to find their own way there are no rules
 
 you've got to go back to the rule breakers

 but to think you'll be more successful than me because I won't listen to him
 is naïve IMHO

 I think we'll just have to agree to disagree
 but I must say I have enjoyed this thread you can't beat a good debate



 

[Sing4me88]

It's not that I think I WILL SUCCEED and you will not on the basis of the video- it's that I think objectively speaking watching the video will impart knowledge that will make anyone a better writer. I expressly stated that simply watching the video WON'T make anyone a hit writer- what it may do is hone the potential and skills of the latent hit writer lying dormant;) If only it were as simple as watching the video to become a successful writer

Yes you are right knowing the right person does help but how much of getting to know the right person hinges on having commercially viable music? It is all IMHO a matter of science and logic- do what works and you stand a better chance of succeeding. I mean in theory I could swim from Ireland to Scotland but I know -thanks to the experience of others who have successfully made the journey before me- that getting the Stena Line ferry is a better method of getting there. I could break the rules but will I actually get to Scotland?

IMHO the 'rule breakers' that succeed are those who already have evreything else in their favour- they have the links, they have the charisma, they ARE the artist not the writer. They can sing whatever song they like and get 'away' with it. As a writer I'm afraid you do not have the luxury of breaking the rules and expecting to score similar success.

[benjo]

 again I have to disagree

 if you want to swim from Ireland to Scotland then you have to get in the water
 you cannot get a lift otherwise your not swimming anywhere
 and getting a lift is the easy way like if your born into it or know the captain so to speak

 this guy is a successful writer no argument from me
 but I do believe he was in the right place for success to start with
 his mother was in the industry big leg up the ladder

 no I didn't mean you were saying that you would be more successful
 I was referring to STC with the stars thing and if I don't take notice its my loss
 some times it can work the other way
 write what comes to you and use your natural talent if you focus to much on one subject
 it could make you a worse writer, because you could be struggling with it
 and stopping your natural flow that's MHO

 but TBH we all have different opinions and I don't see how we will agree on this
 but I do think it is unfair to say i will be less successful no one knows that
 and know one can say that,  its like if I said with a cookery book that I read
 READ THIS IF YOU ASPIRE TO SUCCEED
 that's just not for me to say and if you disagree well you wont have success then
 you'll stay in the gutter but i'll see the stars,     mmmmmm its a funny one for sure