[S.T.C]

[Boydie]

I am currently reading his book 

[S.T.C]

I am currently reading his book  

Then your on the right path  ....never heard of him before i found this.....he makes a lot of sense if your interested in commercial writing.

[Boydie]

Yeah - I found it a while ago and really enjoyed it

I don't actually "take" to Ralph as a person for some reason but he makes a lot of good points, which match with everything else I have read, so there definitely are "rules" hat will increase your chances

However, as has been discussed before to land a "hit" the rules themselves will not be enough

You still need an exceptional idea, melody, rhythm, lyric, performance, production etc. but if you have all of this and don't apply "the rules" then you could potentially miss out (IMHO  )

[tone]

I agree with Boydie!

I don't take to Ralph either - he just grates me! But has some very interesting things to say.

I think the thing that bothers me most is he seems to be excited more by a song's success than its content. Which seems back to front to me.

And while I think learning the craft is *essential* for songwriters, I also think religiously sticking to formulas and forms is a recipe for the mediocrity and stagnation.

One of the best-selling records of all time: Bohemian Rhapsody.

I know, they're the exception rather than the rule. But if you're aiming for exceptional...

[S.T.C]

` he seems to be excited more by a song's success than its content`
I think he`s excited by success and if it comes in the form of `trashy` pop music ,so be it!
He`s in a world were as a writer your expected to deliver songs that get artists hits and record companies profits....i think that`s where he`s coming from, and thats what he`s teaching.
I liked the phrase  `stand alone writer`...and i get that, cos thats my situ also...i `create` for others and so     found a lot of what he said informative.
As to his personality,i don`t know..guess he`s got that worldly worn turn of phrase,this is a business and if you don`t deliver your out!

Incidently i think Pokerface is an amazing song.

[Jess]

One of the best-selling records of all time: Bohemian Rhapsody.

MAMAAAAAAAAA JUST KILLED A MANNNNNNNNNNN

[tone]

MAMAAAAAAAAA JUST KILLED A MANNNNNNNNNNN

See?!

Even the kids love it (no offence Jess - everyone under 25 is a 'kid' when you reach my age :p )

[Jess]

Even the kids love it (no offence Jess - everyone under 25 is a 'kid' when you reach my age :p )

Heehee WE'RE ALL CHILDREN IN GOD'S EYES (apparently) I love Queen, I think it's such a shame Freddie Mercury died because the things that man did and could still be doing now...wow and I mean Bohemian Rapsody has to be the greatest song of all time, even though it's not my favourite song, it's technically and structurally amazing.

[benjo]

 its funny when I watched this he really got on my nerves
 as he came across to me as very big headed and boasted to much
 for some reason I think most of the biggest songs and artists come from
 breaking the rules under normal conditions they do things differently
 they have their own way style sound and so on,

 and one thing that stuck with me was    ALL THE SINGLE LADIES
 when he played it and said how good it was, I agree its a cracker
 but think about it would you write those lyrics and post them on the forum
 you would get slated for how many times it repeats as do most top songs
 yet if you post lyrics that repeat people say it repeats to much

 I also noticed he mentioned that his mother was in the business and he was doing it
 from the age of four,  I think its called    NEPITISME  when your given that start in life by
 someone who is already their,

 just one example for me at the moment is ant and dec Philip schofield holly whillaby
 keith lemmon and all those notice they all appear on each others shows all the time
 I think that's how the music industry works the same way
 but ELVIS was different broke all the rules and some of the songs he made hits
 the writers didn't even think those songs were that good when they wrote them
 so my point is I don't think anyone really can say do it like this or like that
 that's why in music they are always looking for the new sound the new look
 someone who pushes the norm out of shape, 
 plus if it was true what he says look at some of the most stupid songs they would not happen
 

       ITS A FUNNY OLD GAME BE DIFFERENT LETS BREAK THE RULES ITS MORE FUN

[Boydie]

The "rules" haven't been "set"

The "rules" are what the (general) audience expects from a song - which is inevitably based on what has come before

Don't forget that Ralph is all about the ££££££££ - he is NOT saying what makes a "good" song, he is studying what characteristics a song has that makes lots of £££££££ (ie will be purchased, played on the radio etc.)

It is good to different but if you are looking for commercial success then you can't be too different

There are always exceptions to the rules but it will not help you to focus on the exceptions if you want to be commercially successful

If you are interested in being creative rather than commercially successful then you can safely ignore all rules - there is still a chance you would get commercial success but it would be diminished IMHO

Also, don't forget Ralph is talking from the perspective of the "standalone" writer - ie someone who writes for others

I wonder if "Bo Rap" would have been picked up as a "pitch" rather than being written by the band?

[S.T.C]

"The "rules" haven't been "set"

The "rules" are what the (general) audience expects from a song - which is inevitably based on what has come before

Don't forget that Ralph is all about the ££££££££ - he is NOT saying what makes a "good" song, he is studying what characteristics a song has that makes lots of £££££££ (ie will be purchased, played on the radio etc.)"

I don`t quite agree with this statement entirely or what Benjo had to say

First of all , there are rules....theres structure, that works, he gave the 6 examples and explained them very well,how they affect the listener,subliminally and psychologically..a bit  like the way most of us would like to eat a 5 course meal....you don't stick the pudding in at number 3 do you.

I don`t also feel the general `dislike` towards the guy.......is he big headed, name dropping etc...well he`s talking to an audience that have paid £100`s to listen to him...so they`re going to need to know there listening to a successful songwriter with a proven track record....and not someone off the Songwriters forum with their own `home spun` view of the industry...

I can tell that Ralph has had a lifelong love of music.....and no doubt ,"rudolph the red nosed reindeer" is a song he`s loved as a kid and still does as a man in his 60`s?...he never forgot the affect it had on him as a kid.....and he`s used that `knowledge` to help him write material which as the same affect on another audience....

I believe he does think there all good songs....i`m sure he knows is A-Z of western contemporary rock/pop and whatever...it`s not like he`s going to bad mouth `prog rock` or music which as little commercial value....the point that Boydie is making that i do agree with is that the guy is in commercial songwriting , and he`s simply teaching what he knows.what he`s learnt...and how people like him last for years in an industry which will drop you very quickly,if you don`t deliver the goods!

[benjo]

 mmmmmmmm,

 yeah there are no set rules, but it does help to get that leg up the ladder
 its like also if you notice the best ever discovered are usually found by accident
 and its the same with a lot of  lyrics / songs,
 but yeah I do agree that that he is talking about what he knows so I think that's why he's
 stuck in a bubble where you must do it this way or that,

 the beatles tried writing songs in all kinds of different ways
 but the sound they had was incredible and they were almost missed
 as with Elton john Elvis and so many more

 years and years ago you had to kick down doors and work the bars / pubs clubs
 but like today you can go on the X factor and become big over night
 SUSAN BOYLE / PAUL POTTS,   I know we'll all have different opinions about it
 but I just don't like it when someone says you have to do this like this or forget it

 if you write a song like    ALL THE SINGLE LADIES   and send it to UK SONG COMP
 I think they would just say it repeats to much 

 but if Robbie Williams decided to sing the phone book and he can't sing

 don't suppose any of us will ever know the real way I think most is accidental
 like the one hit wonders ( what's a matter you hey ) ( save your love )
 and I thought micheal Jackson had the highest selling song with  THRILLER

                                               I THINK ITS A LOTTERY   

[tone]

I dunno - I think STC makes some interesting points.

You can't deny that many successful songs share common characteristics. But like Boydie says, they're not enough on their own to make your song a hit.

You need good melody and good lyrics first and foremost. Then you need a good singer or personality to deliver the song. You need an interesting arrangement played by competent players, and a good mix/ master.

Once you have all of the above, you need contacts or a heavy dose of luck to get your song anywhere near a mainstream recording artist.

But, if money is the primary goal, you could do a lot worse than follow the advice in the video.

I just think it's a shame that risk-takers are all but absent in today's music industry. Thank god for the Bjorks and Tom Waits of this world. Someone out there has to make it their business to break as many of "the rules" as possible while still making brilliant music that their fans want to hear.

[S.T.C]

 mmmmmmmm,

 yeah there are no set rules, but it does help to get that leg up the ladder
 its like also if you notice the best ever discovered are usually found by accident
 and its the same with a lot of  lyrics / songs,
 but yeah I do agree that that he is talking about what he knows so I think that's why he's
stuck in a bubble where you must do it this way or that,

 the beatles tried writing songs in all kinds of different ways
 but the sound they had was incredible and they were almost missed
 as with Elton john Elvis and so many more

 years and years ago you had to kick down doors and work the bars / pubs clubs
 but like today you can go on the X factor and become big over night
 SUSAN BOYLE / PAUL POTTS,   I know we'll all have different opinions about it
 but I just don't like it when someone says you have to do this like this or forget it

 if you write a song like    ALL THE SINGLE LADIES   and send it to UK SONG COMP
I think they would just say it repeats to much 

 but if Robbie Williams decided to sing the phone book and he can't sing

 don't suppose any of us will ever know the real way I think most is accidental
 like the one hit wonders ( what's a matter you hey ) ( save your love )
 and I thought micheal Jackson had the highest selling song with  THRILLER

                                               I THINK ITS A LOTTERY   

Well i`m not very well today and feeling argumentative so i`ll take the bait 

Iv`e highlighted a few points in your last message,that make me think you haven't really understood what he`s said, now i know you heard what he said ....but i think strongly held prejudicial beliefs( held quite high in the amateur songwriting world i may add) colour what you want to think he said.......

He`s not saying, do it like this and that, and you will have success... he`s saying if you write the right themes,lyrics(story/sentiments) for the right audience(women /mostly) and fit it into,STRUCTURES ,that have been proven to work......you stand a good chance of getting your material recorded/published/played and earning you money.

Hre`s also not talking to the artist,,,he`s talking to the songwriter to the publisher, to the managers.supervisors and others involved in the decision making process  .

When you`ve been good at something for a long time, and your professional colleagues are other successful people in the industry , you get to understand that much of it is down to formula,,,,,it`s all very well mentioning ,Queen and The Beatles, but they we`re one off type Bands...of which there are many, but how many of these bands have songs in the highest bracket of royalties payments....not as high up there as you might think.

So, is Ralph stuck in bubble? a very lucrative bubble if he is.....would Single ladies be rejected for repeating.not likely, anyone judging with an ounce of songwriter in them would quickly see the potential...

And as to it being a lottery......only if you ignore, the wisdom guys like him have learn`t.