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Panning

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massa

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« on: March 19, 2011, 10:15:58 PM »
Hi guys,

I am totally not all there when it comes to a lot of things, however one problem I have in particular is panning (and mixing but that's another kettle of mice). :-\

So I have been messing about with my mixes, and I have some that are complex with a lot of tracks, but again I'll leave that for now. I am recording some music with just piano and voice. I've got my vocals set at 0 for panning i.e. centre - recorded mono. Then I've got my piano recorded stereo and panned 100 L and 100 R. Is that optimum? I don't know to what extremes panning should be done. The L and R channels play the same thing, so the piano doesn't have different parts for L and R.

I'm also wondering about backing vocals, where should these pan? Centre to?

Also if I want to double track my vocals what happens then? Do I say like make one version L 10 and R 10? Also when double tracking do you tend to record two different versions or just offset one against the other?

Sorry for all the questions, hopefully someone can help. I have NO IDEA!!!!



tone

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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 10:41:27 PM »
A quick panning primer: a mono track panned to 0 is basically the same as L&R stereo panned hard L&R - you get the same volume of the track in each speaker.

When organising your panning, try to imagine all the parts of your recording occupying a physical space, forming a semicircle around your 'microphone'. You should pan each part to the physical position in the semicircle it occupies.

Please remember that panning isn't the only thing to consider when balancing your mix. EQ is extremely important too. But you're new to it, and like the rest of us, you'll find your way. Not that I've found mine - I'm still working on it!

Hope that helps!
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hofnerite

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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2011, 11:36:20 PM »
Panning has always been a bit trial and error for me, I have never really understood what should go where.

If anyone could give me a rough idea of what usually goes where, left to right, it will be appreciated. Do you split the vocals wide L and R or just either side of centre? Do the drums go dead centre?

ie, what's the best general setup for a typical band? (vox, drums, guitars/piano, bass)

tone

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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2011, 10:18:25 AM »
This is what I've been told:

Voice goes centre as it's the focal point. Bass also goes centre, and drums pan far left and right in a stereo spread. Guitars, keys, other stuff goes in the remaining gaps, each with it's own place in the panning area.

Hope that helps!
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massa

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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2011, 11:44:29 AM »
Guys thanks for your help. With EQ am I not correct in thinking just push the voice to the foreground and piano slightly background. So in  a stage setting there's me at the front?

Back to the panning, so suppose I'm there singing my heart out into my Neumann mic at the front of the stage, and I have a fabulous pianist playing for me in the background (that's you Oli Dickinson  ;)), do I pan me centre and the piano off to one side? Like mono and over to the left?

Also, if I decide to sit and play the piano myself, and sing into my mic at the piano then what panning and eq would I use there as technically I'm sitting in the same place.

This is confusing as hell!

hofnerite

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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2011, 12:47:32 PM »
This is what I've been told:

Voice goes centre as it's the focal point. Bass also goes centre, and drums pan far left and right in a stereo spread. Guitars, keys, other stuff goes in the remaining gaps, each with it's own place in the panning area.

Hope that helps!

Cheers Tone, that goes to show why all my recordings sound a bit strange!

tone

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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2011, 01:02:21 PM »
Cheers Tone, that goes to show why all my recordings sound a bit strange!
Don't thank me yet! Let's wait to hear what Dutchbeat & Pablo have to say on the matter - I think they're more qualified than I am to give advice worth following! :)
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Paul

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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2011, 07:17:54 PM »
Hey there everyone,

I'm certainly no expert when it comes to mixing a track, but am happy to share one or two thoughts for your consideration.  I've dug around a little on the net and found the following tips re panning.  I've condensed the instruction so as not to make the reading too tiresome. 

Bass - centre behind the vocalist, This will ground your track.  It's going to sound wrong if panned left or right.

Drums - Centre.  If you're separating the various parts of a kit, then place the snare centre, the hi hats half right, the cymbals left/right and the toms left/right/centre.

Vocals - centre

Lead guitar - centre

guitar 1 - far right,  guitar 2 - far left (However, I don't always follow this technique)

Massa, I think the following article will be worth reading for tips on Piano/keys:

http://www.audiorecording.me/how-to-mix-piano-keyboard-panning-eq-and-compression-techniques.html


Having picked this information up from various sources and given it some consideration, I've got to say that when I'm mixing my songs, I like to close my eyes and pan a particular instrument, relying on my hearing to tell me when it has been correctly positioned.  I want to hear the part that I've just written and don't want it to fight for space with another part that is equally important.  I'd like to stress once again, that I'm no expert and am currently on a steep learning curve with the above techniques.  If anyone can find information to aid all our understanding and find that it is more appropriate than that which I have included, then please share with the folk of this forum. 

Hope that the above is of some help to everyone. Please post to let everyone know if the techniques have helped your mixing or not.

Thanks,

Paul


massa

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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2011, 08:42:54 PM »
Wow thanks Paul very informative. I'll check out that link that you've posted!

mihkay

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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2011, 05:11:36 PM »
I am certainly no expert in this area. Just started trying mixing middle of 2010, but as a starting point I try to think of each instrument having its own space in 3 dimensions.
Panning is moving things left to right. Adding re-verb / delay moves things front to back and the pitch of an instrument moves it up and down. Each instrument has it's own "bubble" in these 3 dimensions. :D
But I only ever use this as a starting point if I have a large number of instruments! Because each instrument should only be in the arrangement is there is room for it musically in the first place. ;)
Traditionally the vocalist is in the middle flanked by guitar bass & keys. Drums behind.
If you're talking just vocal and piano or vocal and one guitar an easy solution is to keep vocal centre and pan piano / guitar hard one way and put the same piano part with a slight delay on the other channel to balance thing up.
There are lost of great books out there if you wish to spend money, but there are some great free tutorials on you tube. For example this one on EQ. I found it quite useful (if you ignore the Pro-Tools stuff). http://www.homestudiocorner.com/2009/07/15/intro-to-eq-video/
But mostly. Use your ears and practice practice practice and then........listen more and practice more!  ;D
I have no authority or standing here, only opinions. :-)

massa

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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 10:31:15 PM »
Hey thanks for that mihkay. I'm using ProTools so it'll be doubly useful! I'll check it out! ;)

Ramshackles

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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 09:48:36 AM »
Ive recorded quite a lot of piano. When it is just piano and voice I almost always record the voice in mono and the piano stereo, just like you said you had done, it leaves more room. Sometimes its nice to double track the piano to 2 mono tracks and pan these L and R for a slightly fuller sound or to give it a chorous effect.
I posted a track in the review forum 'Bluebell Woods' which demonstrates it - at the begginning it is just a stereo piano and voice, towards the end guitars, drums etc enter, here, the stereo piano is dropped and a mono piano is used, panned to the right with the guitars panned to the left.

EQ is also really helpful to define the tracks - you want the vocals to sound 'in front', you can do this by pushing the mid-high freqs on the vocal track ever so slightly and dropping the same ones ever so slightly in the piano track

Good.Times.Studio.Lincoln

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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2011, 07:58:50 PM »
Massa,  Depending on what kind of music that you are playing, your mixes will change.  I RARELY set any lead vocal tracks in the middle any more.  I offset them ever so slightly and then put the background vox offset to the right.  I drew a lot of my inspiration in my rock mixes from listening to the way that the Mike Fraser (mixing engineer) mixed some of Van Halen's albums.  I'd take a step back from the mixing desk and listen to some similar artists through "can-style" headphones and really analyze and pinpoint where things are happening in the music.  Sometimes i'll listen to music and draw 8 "pan-knobs" on a piece of paper and try to pinpoint where the Drums, Bass, Guitar(s), Vox, and Background Vox are all positioned.  Then you can give it a shot in your own music and see where you end up!  I've been pleasantly surprised each time I've done this with my music!  I hope this helps!
Tyler Larson
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glennannie

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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2012, 10:57:01 PM »
Panning during recording should be used to isolate each track.On my mixer and I record track 1 the pan is to the left called "odd" and the track 1-2 button is depressed for that track.Then to isolate track 2 the pan is to the right and the track 1-2 button is depressed for that track.During playback or mixdown you can pan anyway you like.At 12 o'clock it would be a mono mix.Track one at 9 o'clock and track 2 at 3 o'clock gives you a truer stereo mix.With main vocals,snare,and kick drum I pan the mixdown at 12 o'clock.All other overdubs is your own choice.

Glenn

Boydie

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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2012, 11:11:06 PM »
A good approach to take is to actually visualise where you want the instruments (which is what you are already doing with your "stage" approach)

It may be helpful to ignore the "in front and behind" bits for now as this is achieved with other effects (e.g. use of Reverb to provide distance and no-reverb for "up front")

As for panning I agree with having the "focal point" (which there should always be) in the centre (not necessarily dead centre as pointed out by Ramshackles)

The focal point is usually the vocal but could be a lead guitar line, lead synth line etc.

I also agree with bass being centre

I like to pan the drums as they are seen when looking at them - e.g. kick centre, snare slightly left, hats slightly right, and toms panned at varying degrees to get movement with tom runs

I then like to add the other instruments, whilst trying to keep a balance

For me I like to have a strong balance e.g.  I would have a strummed guitar on the left with a picked guitar on the right (using different EQ to help with separation)
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