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Cheating

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ShinyThang

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« on: February 14, 2014, 06:23:42 AM »
I recently played a simple recording of my latest song to a friend. They commented on the piano playing. They said I was getting good on the piano. I said that part was played by EZKeys. Oh! ... then you cheated?

I don't want to be a 'Mike Oldfield' or a 'Phil Collins'. I'm not a multi-instrumentalist or a fantastic producer. I sometimes allow myself to be called a songwriter.

I do have to admit though that deep down I was a little uncomfortable with using EZKeys even though it was only playing the chord progs I'd entered into it after initially writing the song on the guitar. Just like giving a chord sheet to an experienced pianist and asking them to play it in a certain style. A short, eight bar section however was taken straight from the library chords-and-all, transposed to the right key and just altered a little at the end to 'slot' back in with my own progression. This part formed what could be loosely termed a 'middle eight'.

Maybe I did cheat? ...
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diademgrove

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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 07:34:23 AM »
Just a thought, could Handel play all the instruments he wrote music for, or Mozart? What about George Martin's scores for the Beatles?

Nobody would accuse them of cheating by getting other people to play what they'd written.

Using what's available, whether professional musicians, or EZ piano, or samples, isn't cheating to me. As long as the music's original that's what matters.

Hope this helps.

diadem

Boydie

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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 08:48:34 AM »
I went through exactly the same dilemma with my first use of EZKeys

I wanted to go for "$hit or bust", which is why I wrote a piano based ballad for my "test drive" of EZ Keys

My conclusion was that it was NO DIFFERENT from working with an experienced session musician in a studio, although it certainly has more patience than most keyboard players I have worked with  ;D

What you are essentially doing is using a TOOL to show your song in its best light - if you want keyboards/piano in your song, and you don't play them then, you either need a session musician, collaborate with someone, find a sample, or use EZ Keys

Mucking around with the "library" and finding something you like is no different from asking a session musician to play a few ideas - allowing you to pick the ones you like

When you delve deeper into EZ Keys you will get used to "chopping and changing" the patterns - eg use the feel of one pattern for half a bar and then another etc.

You can also export the MIDI performance into a DAW to allow you to change or tweak anything you want

For me the convenience, sound and ease of working actually make working with EZ Keys a better (and more creative) experience than working with a session musician or collaborating with a piano player

At least EZ Keys won't come chasing you for a "cut" if one of your songs does "make it" claiming it wrote half of it!!!!
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tone

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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 09:07:29 AM »
For me the convenience, sound and ease of working actually make working with EZ Keys a better (and more creative) experience than working with a session musician or collaborating with a piano player
Sounds to me like you haven't met the right piano player yet Boydie :p

I understand that it's a good tool, but better and more creative than a real session piano player? I suppose it depends on the relationship you want with other musicians, but EZ keys can't suggest a change from A7 to a BbDim7 for example - or any number of tiny nuances that experienced piano players throw in. Or coming up with a riff? A part taken from a library surely can't compete with a part specially created for your song?

OK I've never used EZ keys, so maybe it's cleverer than I realise, but how does it cope with unusual chord transitions, noticing and responding to the pivotal moment in the song and such like?

To me it's the difference between letting a drum machine play your rhythm parts or programming an actual drum part in beat-by-beat. You may get away with the former, but the latter (if you're good at it :p ) is going to be way better.
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Boydie

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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 10:13:45 AM »
Quote
I understand that it's a good tool, but better and more creative than a real session piano player? I suppose it depends on the relationship you want with other musicians, but EZ keys can't suggest a change from A7 to a BbDim7 for example - or any number of tiny nuances that experienced piano players throw in. Or coming up with a riff? A part taken from a library surely can't compete with a part specially created for your song?

OK I've never used EZ keys, so maybe it's cleverer than I realise, but how does it cope with unusual chord transitions, noticing and responding to the pivotal moment in the song and such like?

To me it's the difference between letting a drum machine play your rhythm parts or programming an actual drum part in beat-by-beat. You may get away with the former, but the latter (if you're good at it :p ) is going to be way better.

Actually TONE - it DOES do all of that!!  :o - which is why when I read the reviews I thought it was too good to be true - but it is all true!

You can set up a chord sequence for EZ Keys to play (or EZ Keys will even suggest some chord progressions if you are a complete beginner)

Lets assume you enter a simple C F G chord progression

The “library” then allows you to tell EZ Keys to play that chord progression in a range of styles played by a professional session player

EZ Keys then (very cleverly) plays YOUR chord progression in the style you choose

If you choose a “pop” style you will get a very straightforward chord progression – however if you select something like JAZZ the software WILL actually substitute chords for more “complicated” (jazzy) alternatives and come up with riffs that compliment that genre

It doesn’t always get it right and to get the best from EZ Keys you need a good grounding in music theory

EZ Keys is actually a very intelligent piece of software – it definitely does not simply play preset patterns over predetermined chord sequences – and it really does give the “feel” of a session player playing YOUR composition

I think there is a trial if you want to give it a whirl – the YouTube videos certainly do not do it justice
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James Nighthawk

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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 12:56:45 PM »
To me it is a worrying slide on a slippery slope.

The more we start letting computers make artistic choices, the further we are from authorship of our work.

It may be very similar to using a session player, but I would want a human. At least that way the human aspect is maintained. It becomes "our" work rather than "mine", but I am much happier with that than computers.

And then there is the fact that these instruments lack nuance. They are always perfectly on time, eve when syncopated. I guess there are "reduce quantisation" options, but still...

For DEMO work, brilliant! But as and when there start seeping into studio production, I will shed a tear.

And like ALL "cheat" options, the mass market will be lazy with them. They will do "just enough" to make them sound good, using very similar settings, which will lead to 100s sound-a-likes. Just like when autotune released, and the 808 (although that has a COOL factor I like), and  so on.

At least every session musician is different. Human.

It is an odd topic. I am a snob about this, I will admit, but it does worry me.

Will a composer simply become an automater? Worrying.... and then as for live .... well!!!

Interesting thinking points :)
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Boydie

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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 02:21:42 PM »
Quote
And then there is the fact that these instruments lack nuance. They are always perfectly on time, eve when syncopated. I guess there are "reduce quantisation" options, but still...

I think this has improved greatly in recent years - most MIDI patterns nowadays have a much more natural "human" feel to them - ie they are recorded by humans with the "nuances" left in, leaving it up to the user to decide to quantize or not (and I guess most will reach for the easy option of hitting the quantize button to line everything up with the grid!)


Quote
For DEMO work, brilliant! But as and when there start seeping into studio production, I will shed a tear.


I agree with you 100% here and as soon as you mentioned this comment I thought about the "808" so had a little chuckle when you mentioned it

I also agree that the "mass market" will probably use and abuse this type of tool but I think as long as you have your eyes wide open you can't go far wrong

I liken it to DIY - of course you can build your own walls, cabinets, plastering, plumbing etc. but it is often a "false economy"

If you want a "top notch" finished product then I think you are much better off seeking out an expert, who will have the right tools for the job - and most importantly know how to use them

Music production is no exception and if WHEN I write my hit song I will be recording a proper version with an expert before pitching


I don't mean to keep defending EZKeys - and part of me wants to keep it my secret!  :P

If you can't play piano and don't have access to a real player then it is a great option to add some piano to your tracks
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diademgrove

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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 09:10:05 PM »
Here's couple of songs I like that used a mix of real musicians and an early version of the computer technology we have today.





I think whether new technology is awful depends on what people do with it. There are a lot of really bad records recorded by real musicians whilst the above are regarded by some people, including me, as classics. We all have different tastes its what makes music exciting.

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James Nighthawk

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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 12:04:55 AM »
eerrr...

I think you haven't quite grasped the point of this thread Diademgrove ;)

Great tunes, love em both. This isn't about computers, computerised sounds, synths or sources. It is about computerised algorithms which "create" entire parts for you

Pretty sure both Strawberry Fields and Life on Mars predate such tech.

I would bet my house on it  ;D
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ShinyThang

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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 06:20:23 AM »
I think I could have walked away from this feeling okay except for James' comments. It is the fact that I took the middle 8 almost straight out of EZKeys that troubles me. That short section is really EZKeys' composition. It has very cleverly moulded itself to suit the rest of my song. Yes, I laid the melody over it and the melody is a variation of the verses which is 100% ShinyThang.

I think perhaps it's time for a 'work in progress' posting ...
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diademgrove

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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 07:18:05 AM »
eerrr...

I think you haven't quite grasped the point of this thread Diademgrove ;)

Great tunes, love em both. This isn't about computers, computerised sounds, synths or sources. It is about computerised algorithms which "create" entire parts for you

Pretty sure both Strawberry Fields and Life on Mars predate such tech.

I would bet my house on it  ;D

The original versions of the Mellotron included automatic accompaniments if you wanted them. Which is what I thought you were talking about. My apologies if you weren't.

The strings in Life on Mars were written and then programmed (in the words of Ken Scott) by Mick Ronson. It is possible that both Ronson and the Beatles made use of the automated parts of the Mellotron.

My apologies if this isn't what you are talking about.

diadem

S.T.C

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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2014, 11:04:50 AM »
I think in reality there's very few  people around, who can cover all the bases...write,compose,record,mix/master to a high standard....i would use these technologies if thats what i was mainly doing..the fact is i`ve got someone who can do it all,but not write..so that works.

Actually on a demo we we`re talking about,he said do i want live piano or programmed .and then played me an example of his previous stuff using  software,,,well i couldn't tell it wasn't real,and he was like saying it`s pretty close to the real thing, i  guess.

As long as the idea is yours and the machines are filing in the holes and not creating something new,,,,to the point you feel the  song is no longer your creation.... :)  i would take the credit?

beckylucythomas

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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2014, 11:12:58 AM »
Interesting thread! Good question Shiny!

I don't really know how ez keys works, just like i don't really know how a session with a session pianist would work.... I'd assume you can be as much or as little the "real" author of what gets played as you like, so how much the result of what you do is creative, original, and, most importantly, yours is completely dependent on how you use the tools - exactly the same with a clever digital tool as with a clever human tool. You can rely heavily on the tool's creativity, or you can focus on using your own. For me personally, i think that with a digital tool, to get the sense of satisfaction of creating something, I'd want to tell it exactly what to do, note by note (even though it is a pain in the bum to actually do). I guess garageband is far less "clever" than ez keys, but i think for me that would be beside the point....I'd just want to know that I'd written what I'd written. I suspect that with a human tool I'd be a little more open to suggestions, but essentially, I'd still want to have already written the part, note by note.... In my mind, if i ever had session musicians there to do my bidding, they would be doing exactly that... I'd have written every part for them so they'd be playing off sheet music written by me. And maybe they'd offer suggestions here and there, and maybe I'd go with them or maybe I'd tyrannically shoot them down in flames. No doubt I'd be well advised to be a tad less megalomaniacal to benefit from the superior musicianship of my dogsbodies. And i never have actually had the experience of working with a session musician, so i don't know what I'd do in reality. But if I'd written a song and i wanted it performed/recorded, I'd want to feel that it was mine... It would be different of course if i were doing something collaboratively, like in a band, but if it really were my piece, I'd want to know that it was essentially all mine......

I don't know how the library thing works in ez keys, but assuming it's just a catalogue of presets that comes with the software, a major problem, quite apart from not giving you the satisfaction of knowing that you'd created it yourself, is that any number of other people who are also using the software could also be using the exact same snippet of library clipping...and the bigger and the more un-tweaked it is by you, the more likely it could potentially be recognised as being the same as in another song, or even as being directly out of ez keys. (And yes, i know there's an argument that even without taking something from a library, it's not exactly inconceivable that any number of songs could be using the same pattern over the same chord progression as the one that you "made up"...and, come to that, that everything you write that you think you're being original with is actually derivative of thousands of other pieces of music that you've heard before....but that's a whole other can of worms...)

The fact that it concerns you enough to post about it, Shiny, seems to suggest that it already means you're taking less satisfaction in your own song. I'm sure your song is brilliant, but the most important thing, first and foremost, is that it should give you a sense of pride in the creation of it.

Any approach is possibly a valid way of creating music, but from a personal perspective, i reckon the more creativity you put in, the more satisfaction you get out...

Of course, as you guys already mentioned, using digital tools to help write music, and using them to perform it are two completely different kettles of fish.... And (talking only about music that's actually written for real instruments, not music that was always intended to be electronic) in an ideal world i think you'd always have real musicians playing real real instruments. But it's not an ideal world, so for demos, the digital versions are extremely handy...and so much cheaper!!

if you want keyboards/piano in your song, and you don't play them then, you either need a session musician, collaborate with someone, find a sample, or use EZ Keys

I'm not sure whether this is what you meant Boydie, but i don't think that if you don't play an instrument, but you want to use it in your song, the only options are to get someone or something else to make it up for you. Yes you need someone/something else to play it for you, but just because you can't play a part doesn't mean you can't write it. Like diadem said, probably Handel and Mozart didn't play every instrument they wrote for (though I'm sure they played many more than i can  :) )....... If you can hear what you want in your head then you can write the part without the help of a human or digital tool. You still need to communicate it somehow of course so that it can get heard...either by writing manuscript for a musician or by plugging it all into some software...but you can definitely write it. I'm sure you probably write better if you also play though, as you'll have a better understanding of the instrument and what it can do.

Basically the more you can do yourself, the better, but we can't all do everything, so tools are useful. As long as you don't give the tools to a robot and tell it to go do everything for you!   ;D

Whoa that was a long post.... But don't worry, i got ez essays to write it for me!  ;D

James Nighthawk

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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2014, 11:26:09 AM »
Great discussion indeed:

@Diad'
I had NO idea that the early editions of the mellatron had some degree of left hand automation. That is amazing knowledge! I am struggling to find out exact details but have an overview here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mellotron

Extract : The first notable musician to use the Mellotron was variety pianist Geoff Unwin, who was specifically hired by Robinson in 1962 to promote the use of the instrument. He toured with a Mk II Mellotron and made numerous appearances on television and radio.[23] Unwin claimed that the automatic backing tracks on the Mk II's left hand keyboard allowed him to provide more accomplished performances than his own basic skills on the piano could provide.[24]

Amazing that this was going on as early as 1962!

I suppose, tech always helps us do things we can't. Synths that stack chords with one touch. Arpegiators.

To be VERY clear, I am generally all for technology. And as I have stated on this thread, using EZkeys/Smart instruments in a demo as a stand in for a session player is stunningly useful for home recording.

It is the concern of automation, machine logic, taking over the creative process that bugs me. It is a "where do I draw the line! situation.

I think we all agree that if I submitted a song as mine saying "I asked the computer the compose something fun, 3 minutes long, in D major, with a funk bass and snappy guitar - and here it is!"... we would all congratulate the programme but not me!

Having the odd line played on top of a composition in leiu of a session player.... far more acceptable.

My concern is not the action, but the snowball effect these things can have.

Hopefully the market will place the boundaries naturally in a decent spot  ;D
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ShinyThang

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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2014, 12:03:14 PM »
I've popped the song in question into the WIP section to illustrate my concerns

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/feedback-on-works-in-progress/only-all-the-time/

Thanks for the continued discussion, you can see I'm not sitting altogether comfortably with this approach to songwriting.

Caco: Great response ... did you use EZ Essays in your recent exams? ;)
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