New song- Just a man

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tokenangmoh

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« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2014, 09:42:25 AM »
Quote
keep the info coming

Well, how about types and usage of rhyme?

There are lots of different types, ranging from barely noticeable rhymes that slip by cunningly and are used for subtle decoration, all the way to bold, obvious rhymes that provide closure.

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One aspect of rhyming is how well the sounds of the rhyming words match up.

In a full rhyme, only the opening consonant sounds of the stressed syllables differ:

can / man
bell / fell
no / throw
old / gold


All things being equal, full rhymes are the most satisfying type of rhyme as they "chime" the loudest. Not that you always want rhymes to be satisfying...

Homophones (also called rich rhymes) are the next most satisfying. This is where the words sound identical but have different meanings:

threw / through
pail / pale
sharp (musically) / sharp (like a blade)


Next we have identities or identical rhymes. This is just using the same word twice. For example, the word "again" is used as an identical rhyme in lines two and three of the first verse of Just a Man.

In my opinion, the three types above can be broadly classified as satisfying. They give a sense of closure and questions answered. Interestingly, though, identities don't really work in comic songs. I hadn't consciously noticed this till I read it in the intro to Stephen Sondheim's Finishing the Hat. But he's right: identities are for some reason not funny...

On the "unsatisfying" side, we have (debatably) two types.

The first is partial rhyme (also called half rhyme and slant rhyme). Partial rhyme is actually a pretty big category and some experts split it into several distinct types - but essentially it just means when there is a noticeable similarity between the sounds of two words, but that similarity is less than full rhyme.

So in Just a Man we have:

game / pain
wait / save


These two pairs are partial rhymes based on assonance: they share a vowel sound, but not consonant sounds.

And we also have:

go / through

where the vowel sounds don't match but are close enough that the brain seems to notice a similarity.

Another type of half rhyme is consonance: sharing consonant sounds but not vowel sounds. Examples would be:

park / poke
type / tape


You get a lot of this in rap lyrics.

The second type of "unsatisfying" rhyme is eye rhyme. This is when the spelling of two words would indicate they rhyme, but they actually don't:

again / pain
through / though


Frankly, eye rhyme is more useful in poetry, which we typically read from the page. In song lyrics, where we mainly listen, it's of limited value.

I've classified these rhymes as "unsatisfying", but that's by no means necessarily a bad thing. Unsatisfying rhymes chime audibly but with a slight discord that lets you know everything's not perfect. They're great when you want a sense of incompletion or searching or something like that.

We also have an example in Just a Man of something that looks like rhyme, but which (as Boydie noted) is generally thought too weak to be categorised as such:

dying / praying

The reason this is so weak is that the stressed syllables do not rhyme; only the unstressed syllables do. And as a fairly reliable rule of thumb, if a rhyme does not involve stressed syllables, it's not really a rhyme. So all those "-ing" words? Not much use, sorry.

To address Just a Man specifically, while there's nothing wrong with using partial and eye rhymes - or even with not using rhymes at all - it kind of looks in places like you aimed for full rhymes and missed.

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Another classification of rhyme is into masculine and feminine rhymes.

Masculine rhymes end with a stressed syllable. All of the rhymes in Just a Man are one-syllable masculine rhymes, but you can have more than one syllable too:

inflate / instate
reappeal / freer peal
condemn / on them


Then there are feminine rhymes, which end with one or more unstressed syllables:

Flatterer / chatterer
eating / cheating
Fluorescent / opalescent


And here's an example of a feminine rich rhyme (in this multi-syllabic context, it also gets called an identity):

Romania / nymphomania

It's a rich rhyme / identity rather than a full rhyme because the stressed syllables begin with the same consonant sound.

The main reason for knowing the difference between masculine and feminine rhymes is that you can sometimes get away with a kind of partial feminine rhyme like this:

parting / artist

But you can't really do that with masculine rhymes:

before / betimes

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Another factor that influences the effect of rhymes is their placement. Obviously there are end rhymes that come at the end of the line, and Just a Man is full of them. End rhymes are the highest on our "satisfyingness" scale.

But there's a cunning kind of end rhyme called enjambment rhyme which uses the start of the following line to complete the rhyme:

Extra status!
That's essential
on my way to
C.
E.O.


This is somewhat similar to offset rhyme, which ShinyThang's recent song, Then Leave, used very effectively. Offset rhyme is where syllables at the end of a line rhyme with syllables in the middle or at the start of a different line:

Erase my memory of your smile
And I'll ... unlearn your name
After a hundred years of this
I might forget your kiss ... and refrain from


Subtle, innit? And the partial rhyme of name / refrain makes it even more so.

Then there's internal rhyme, where syllables rhyme with other syllables in the same line. I love me some internal rhyme, as it doesn't necessarily chime very loud but it comes across as clever. Musical theatre is full of it, as in Sondheim's:

an herb that’s superb for disturbances at sea

from his completely amazing show Pacific Overtures.

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So with all these different types of rhyme, there's an extremely wide palette to choose from - all the way from full masculine end rhymes to partial feminine offset rhymes. There will be something in there to help you create the feeling your song needs.

Analysing rhyming lyrics can be a good way to get to grips with all this. So if anyone's interested, the following excerpt from one of my musical theatre songs has lots of different types of rhyme...

CAN YOU IDENTIFY THEM ALL??? ;D

Music!
Frequencies surging in time...
Patterns emerging, sublime...
Purging me, urging me I’m
Alive!
Music!
Reason and feeling made whole...
Freedom concealing control...
Wheeling and reeling,
Revealing and healing the soul!


Matt
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 03:40:17 AM by tokenangmoh »

Jamie

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« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2014, 10:24:30 AM »
Ok Matt now you are just showing off ;). You must have studied this stuff at an advanced level, are you actually Tim Rice? Sorry Sir Tim. I met Sir Tim once, I wish I'd asked him about lyric writing then ??? Maybe it was you Matt.
Cheers
Jamie

beckylucythomas

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« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2014, 12:28:55 AM »
Oh wow! Ok, there is definitely nothing i can add to all that! But I'll be taking from it for sure..........

Dumbstruck and humbled at how lucky we are to have all this expertise at our fingertips!

Matt, i didn't quite get the enjambement one??.....

tokenangmoh

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« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2014, 03:39:23 AM »
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i didn't quite get the enjambement one??.....

Hi caco,

Yup, I can probably explain that more clearly.

"Enjambment" (which I spelled wrongly above, and have now edited) is a term from poetry to describe when a sentence doesn't finish at the end of a line of poetry but instead continues smoothly into the next line.

Here's the Wikipedia example from T S Eliot's The Wasteland. The first three lines use enjambment.

April is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.


Enjambment rhyme does a similar thing.

To re-look at the example I gave:

Extra status!
That's essential
on my way to
C.
E.O.


"Status" is only a partial rhyme with "way to" - but the rhyme gets completed by the "s" sound from the "C" in the next line. It completes the rhyme by making "way to" sound like "waytuss".

Here's another example:

It's really long ago now,
And I'm not sure that I know now
If she stayed in our hotel,
S
o I might have mixed her up with someone else.


Again, we'd only have a partial rhyme if we stuck with the words at the end of lines 3 and 4: "hotel" and "else". The "s" to complete "hotel" comes from "So" in line 4, and makes it sound like "hotelse".

Of course, enjambment rhyme only works when there's no musical rest between two lines.

Hope that's clearer,

Matt
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 04:54:59 AM by tokenangmoh »

Lane1777

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« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2014, 05:51:02 PM »
hi Jamie, good production, and vocal. I had had a thought when I got to the last chorus, it sounded so much better than the first. sounded clean and the harmony better more clear. that might just be me. thought I`d leave a note for you...

Jamie

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« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2014, 07:17:19 PM »
Hi lane 1777, thanks for the feedback, it's appreciated. Yes the harmony works well on the last chorus ;D. My thinking was to have a variation in the early choruses and then to 'resolve' it, so to speak with the harmony version at the end. Maybe it would be better with just the harmony. Glad you liked the production and the vocal.
Cheers
Jamie

joejohnstun

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« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2014, 07:18:26 PM »
It's funny how you can hear a person's influence within seconds of listening to his/her songs.

This song was dreamy and boring for me. Maybe, like some are saying, it's a grower not a shower. And maybe I'm just not in the mood right now for being depressed.

Your piano and guitar leads are epic and sweeping and beautiful. This song would probably be great as an ending track on a long and intense album. It might not do so good as a single on the radio, but maybe that's not what you're going for.

Either way, you sound talented.

JJ.

Jamie

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« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2014, 02:53:14 PM »
Hi JJ thanks for the feedback, as always it's appreciated. I don't try to write specifically for album or single tracks, they are what they are.glad you liked the playing. Thanks for the talent compliment and sorry for depressing  you  ;D
Cheers
Jamie

Stylus

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« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2014, 04:50:31 PM »
Hi Jamie  :)
                  I'm still learning the Alphabet  so I'm  no good in  Enigma codeing etc.  I like your style &
this song sounds like one of your others (which is a good thing) you have identity. Boydie got the bit about following chords by way of melody. I agree with him as  You should sing differently to the chords
a bit like how a bass guitar does something different to the chords. following the chords with your vocals  makes it sound like those automated keyboard accompaniments.
                 The song it self is nice & you do have talent  Lyrically  I'm not religeous so cant rightfully
comment on Jesus or moses   But there is no law....in songwriting or composing  either its good & appeals or its the opposite.   I think this song kind of sits in the middle &  needs something to 'uplift'
the listener.                  Keep up the good work.......Enjoyed listening to it  :) Stylus :)

Jamie

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« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2014, 11:29:08 AM »
Hi styluszzzzzzz,
                         Good to hear from you. Thanks for the comments. This song writing malarkey is much harder than I thought it would be. But you can only keep bashing away and hope to discover a sound and technique that works for you and the listener. Not there yet, but not daunted ;D
Cheers
Jamie

Stylus

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« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2014, 02:41:59 PM »
Hi Jamie
               As I said  Yew'v  got talent   so keep hack it  & soon  you'll be tellin me to shut ma face! ;D

Jamie

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« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2014, 09:30:41 AM »
Hi styluszzzz, I would never say such a thing :D! This has been a really good thread, I hope others have learned as much as I have following the comments of Matt, Boydie and others!
Nice one everyone! 8)
Cheers
Jamie

TheButcher

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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2014, 12:00:36 PM »
Hello,

sorry for not reading all the comments - it s A LOT ! :)

my basic feeling about this: the combination of the words and dthe instrumental feels "unnatural"

the whole instrumental with the very nice piano (it moves left/right?) and the strings sound very "smooth". But the vox kinda clashes that.
Maybe you "could" try not singing in that high head voice. there are small intonation problems and it doesn t come across as smooth as it should.

on lyrics and singing them:

For me, it s kinda hard to write lyrics, seperated from the melody that i wanna sing. So i do it at one time and i more search for a nice sound of the sung word, than to come up with super clever lyrics. Butt hat s just one way to approach it :)

all the best

« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 12:02:31 PM by TheButcher »

Jamie

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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2014, 12:14:28 AM »
Hi mr Butcher, thanks for taking the time to listen and review. Many comments have been about the lyrics, how they rhyme and the overall rhythm of the vocals. If you read back to the previous comments there are many very erudite comments about the issues around my phrasing, rhythm and rhyming patterns that deal with the issues you mention. I have learned a lot from these comments particularly from  Boydie and Matt and I think many others will have learned as much as I have from their excellent comments.
On the question of my voice, I don't always sing in a high register, but sometimes I think it suits the song, so it's a marmite thing, some like it and some don't. 
Thanks for the feedback
Cheers
Jamie

Princeps

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« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2014, 12:49:34 PM »
This is ace, powerful opening piano but the vocals (and the vocal treatment) is the best part.