[AmirMaor]

less of my kind of music, but very relaxing, sound good and nice to hear.

well done

[Jamie]

Hi, glad you liked the music and the vibe was relaxing. Thanks for listening and giving feedback, it's always appreciated.
Cheers
Jamie

[crystalsuzy]

Hi Jamie...lovely piano intro I like your voice and singing style, but I understand what other have already pointed out I like what you've done with the double vocal, but maybe some actual harmonies might give it a lift here and there
I thought the strings were good, but a little loud in parts for my ear I also agree that the chorus needs to really soar and feel quite different from the verses great guitar solo
Over all I think you've got a really good song here and you did a good job with the production
you should definitely continue refining this song   CS

[beckylucythomas]

Hi Jamie!

As ever, i love your piano playing.... I'm not sold on the synth strings in this...they kind of wash over the lovely piano and make it all a bit indistinct.... If i were you I'd ditch the strings. I really wanted to be just listening to your lovely lovely piano playing.... But actually now i think about it you should ignore that comment cos it's all about trying new stuff and improving that way.....if you just played piano all the time just to please me, you'd be the world's best pianist and never try anything else!! 

I don't think the call/response vocals worked that well in the chorus...sounded a bit mistimed, and i think it would be more impactful if you focused on either a single vocal or a main vocal and harmonised BVs in the same timing.

I think your lyrics and concept are interesting, and tell a good story, maybe you could give them more impact through a tight rhythm and rhyming structure that you can't ignore when listening, that might help it to feel a bit more direct. That might also sound a bit weird, cos looking at your lyrics i can see that there's plenty of rhyming, but somehow i don't think i really heard it when listening.... Sorry that probably makes no sense does it?!...

I think small tweaks will make a big difference! 

[Jamie]

Hi CS and Caco,thanks for the feedback,it's always appreciated.

Hi SC, thanks, glad you liked many elements of it. Since you mentioned the strings I could see that they are a little loud. I'm pleased that you like the playing and singing. I did the call response thing mainly so that the end chorus which repeats would be different by having a harmony vocal.

Hi Caco,you're too kind about my piano playing, I'm not really a piano player, I self taught, guitar is my first instrument. But I do enjoy playing keys more. Maybe you can help me here Caco, but the rythm thing evades me. When people comment on this I just can't see it . Can you be more specific or give an example?

Thank you both I appreciate the time taken.
Cheers
Jamie

[Boydie]

Maybe you can help me here Caco, but the rythm thing evades me. When people comment on this I just can't see it   . Can you be more specific or give an example?

Hi JAMIE

I think I may be able to help you a bit here…

I know lots of people don’t like the idea of “rules” in songwriting but there are definitely techniques that can be used to make your songs more “accessible” because they will sound more like the songs people already know and love

It is no secret that I am a big fan of learning these rules, and have studied them in great detail

That is not to say the rules must be followed all of the time but I am a believer that you need to learn the rules before you break them, so that you can ensure that you break the rules “for effect” rather than a song sounding confusing – or in your case getting comments and not understanding why

There are a number of techniques that can help create this sense of “familiarity” eg STRUCTURE (Verse, Chorus, Bridge etc.), ARRANGEMENT (Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus, Chorus) and RHYME SCHEME

A strict RHYME SCHEME creates some consistency in your song and also allows the listener to “anticipate” the rhyme that is about to come, which creates a little “pay off” when this anticipation is satisfied

A good example is a LYMERIC, which has a very recognisable AABBA rhyme scheme and the ultimate “pay off” example with the last line

A talkative man from Seattle A
would spend his days speaking to cattle. A
When asked what he said, B
one old cow shook her head, B
and replied, “Why it’s nothing but prattle!” A


When writing a song it is the law a rule common practice to use a consistent rhyming scheme for each section – eg the same rhyme scheme for all verses, a different rhyme scheme for the chorus (for a bit of contrast), and a different rhyme scheme for a bridge if you have one

Your song does appear to be very inconsistent with its rhyme scheme, which is why I think you are getting these comments:

Looking at your song section by section I think every section has a completely different rhyming scheme

Verse 1: AAAA
Verse 2: ABCC
Chorus: ABCB
Verse 3: AABB
Verse 4: AABC

I think this is why you are getting the comments on the rhymes – you have broken the “rules”

If you have done this intentionally then that is fine and you are being creative

If you are looking to have a bit more “engagement” and have your songs sound “better” (ie more like “conventional” songs) then you need to understand more about the conventions

I think you are at the stage where you can write a good song

The challenge now is to learn a little more about “song craft” and use the tools and techniques you learn to “craft” your songs – good songs are not written, they are re-written

This is where it gets more subjective so you need to decide if you want to be a creative “free spirit” and write however you damn well want to (nothing wrong with this) or whether you want to find more “mass appeal” – whether writing for commercial success or just for the “man on the street” to say that it is a good song (because it sounds like many other good songs they will have heard)


Finally, here is how I deciphered the RHYME SCHEME for your song – I couldn’t listen to it at the time so I may have wrongly labelled a section but you will get the idea

Just a man

I once had religion and it played out a game A
The good lord Jesus forgot me again A
Tried to wreck my life it'll never be the same again A
trying to get away to escape the pain A

I know now I've been wrong A
Hell is coming and heaven can wait B
I've tried my best I want to be free C
Kingdom come Jesus wont you save me C

Chorus
Now it's time for me to go A
I've done the best I can B
It wasn't enough, I'm done I'm through C
What can I say I'm just a man B

I shook the tree and tolled the bell A
I stole my freedom whilst the leaves they fell A
There's nothing I can do now no B
Pick up the dice for one last throw B

Chorus


I've ridden many miles and now I'm old A
I've spent the silver and squandered the gold A
Now I'm on my knees and I'm dying B
Looking through the bars and I'm praying C (I think it is pushing it too far rhyming dying and praying)

Chorus

[Jamie]

Wow Boydie,do you have a PHD in this stuff ok thanks for this, this is something I can study and understand. Let me try to digest this. On first reading it makes sense but I need to study it to get the full meaning.
Cheers
I might be back!
Thanks
Jamie

[beckylucythomas]

Umm yeah.... What Guru Boydie said!!!

I will read/listen again later and see whether there's anything i can add...

Cheers!

[Jamie]

Ok Boydie having re read it ,it's not as complicated as I thought, so I think I've got it.i'll apply this to some of my lyrics and see if I can make it work. Thanks for taking the time to do this, I can understand this now I think

Hi Caco, I knew you would know
Thanks both!
Cheers
Jamie

[tokenangmoh]

Hi Jamie,

First off, what Boydie said, including his caveats about whether you even want to write according to "the rules" in the first place. But assuming you do, you might want to take a look at prosody as well as rhyme.

Generally, songs have predictable prosody - which is to say that the first line of the first verse will have the same number of syllables and the same stress pattern as the first line of the second verse. This makes the rhythm memorable and makes the song easier to sing along with.

"Stress pattern" refers to how stress naturally falls on the words of a line when it is spoken. So in the line "This is the house that Jack built", the stressed syllables are "This", "house", "Jack" and "built", with the rest being unstressed.

Your song doesn't really have predictable prosody, and I think that might be contributing to the comments you are getting about rhythm.

I've taken the liberty of notating the stress patterns in your first three verses. I've used "+" above a syllable to indicate that it is stressed in normal speech, and "-" to indicate unstressed. Some syllables could go either way, and I've indicated that with "-/+".

You can get away with different numbers of unstressed syllables at the start of a line, but once the first stressed syllable kicks in, you would generally want the pluses and minuses to line up vertically, indicating that equivalent lines in your verses have predictable prosody. As you can see, that's not what's happening:


-       +     -   -    +    -      -     -    +      -   - +
I       once  had re   li   gion   and   it   played out a game  = 12
-       +     +   -    -    -/+    +
I       know  now I've been so     wrong                         = 7
-       +     -   +    -    +      -     +
I       shook the tree and  tolled the   bell                    = 8


-       +     -/+  +   -   -      +   _      _    +
The     good  lord Je  sus for    got me     a    gain   = 10
        +     -    +   -   -      +   -      -    +
        Hell  is   com ing and    hea ven    can  wait   = 9
-       +     -    +   -   -      -   +      -    +
I       stole my   freedom whilst the leaves they fell   = 10


        +     -     +     -   +    -   -   + -   -   +    -+
        Tried to    wreck my  life it  was never the same again  = 13
-       +     -     +     -   +    -   -   +
I've    tried my    best  I   want to  be  free                  = 9
-       +     -     +     -   +    -/+ +
There's no    thing I     can do   now no                        = 8


        +      -   +    -    +   -    -    +     -   +
        trying to  get  a    way to   es   cape  the pain  =  10      
        +      -   +    +    -   -/+  -    +     -
        King   dom come Je   sus wont you  save  me        =  9
        -/+    -/+ -    +    -   +    -/+  +
        Pick   up  the  dice for one  last throw           =  8


Hope that's helpful.

On a side note, I really like the piano - but there's some very odd panning going on with it which I wish wasn't there.

Matt

[Jamie]

Hi Matt, more for me to learn from you and Boydie. My head hurts, I thought writing was inspiration and talent, now is find out it's like learning a new language with all the grammar and spelling to understand!
thanks for taking the time to help with this, I appreciate it!
I'll have a look at lyrics now with a new perspective.
Cheers guys
Jamie

[tokenangmoh]

All this stuff soon becomes second nature, and I find it really enjoyable working out how the puzzle pieces fit together. I find working within structures (even self-imposed ones) actually enhances my creativity - and craft certainly enriches talent.

I should add that when you start getting the hang of prosody, it's occasionally possible to squeeze a couple of unstressed syllables into a space meant for one. But having different numbers of stressed syllables in equivalent lines is pretty much a no-no.

Matt

[crystalsuzy]

This is awesome guys I've never really formally known the laws of song writing, so this is great for me too cause I'm just winging it
 so thanks...keep the info coming

[ShinyThang]

I agree with CS, this is a fascinating thread and I need to make sure I can find it in future. Years ago I used to count the syllables in my lyric as I wrote them just as is being described above. I'd forgotten about that 'till I read this. I suppose someone taught me to do it but I can't remember who. Now, I never do that now well, not consciously anyway, but I think that perhaps, as Boydie said 'you have to know the rules before you can break them'. And I've never knowingly considered where the stresses fall in a lyric but, it makes so much sense.

We are being treated to a master class here!

[deegeorge]

Interesting chord progressions in this, l like the layered  vocals aswell.It reminds me of a ballad Gary Numan would of sang from the Telekon era