[mihkay]

What makes a good song? Is it a generational thing?
How one of the greatest song writers of the late 60's and early 70's got started here!..

Check out the young guitarist on the left. Master James Page. Went on to Led Zepplin.
And what influenced him.....!

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And he was influenced by what went before him....

We all have an influence.
I was influenced by both Lonnie (a Glasgow boy), Jimmy (a Brummie)  both who were influenced by American folk music, Rogers and Hammerstein, Beethoven, Charlie Parker.......and many more....... and the beat goes on!

A great song in my opinion.
Not who wrote it..... not what they say..... not what the're influences were........... BUT HOW IT MAKES YOU FEEL!
After hearing the song ...... Do you want to tell your friends about it? Do you want to play that song again and again? Do you sing that song while you're driving your car?

A great song will still be great no matter who performs it.

That's my guess.

MIhkay.

[tone]

Ok so the consensus so far seems to be that a song is good when people respond to it emotionally.

But what about song-craft? How do songwriters give their songs the emotional content that moves their listeners? Do any of you identify the parts of the song and the way the interact to make a great song? Or is it a case of simply following your nose & ears?

[tone]

Here are some of my thoughts. A good song is like a journey. It starts in a familiar place, takes you somewhere new and delivers you back home again, enriched and engaged.
And sometimes it's like a photograph, rich in detail and composition, capturing a moment or a feeling with perfection.

I agree that a good song usually has a melody that can be hummed and remembered individually of the song.

I also think a good song has a strong rhythm - an essential part of the melody.

The best songs in my opinion also have a distinctive or recognisable harmonic progression.

But perhaps the best songwriters are the ones who know all the techniques, and have developed a feel for when to break the 'rules', go out on a limb and deliver something not only surprising but beautiful.

I do think that as a songwriter, it's a pretty important consideration. If we don't know why good songs are good, how do we know if our own songs are good? How do you measure the quality of your songs? I know I've been wrong about my own songs in terms of how well others respond to them.

Would love to hear more thoughts on this

[mihkay]

I do think that as a songwriter, it's a pretty important consideration. If we don't know why good songs are good, how do we know if our own songs are good? How do you measure the quality of your songs?

Whilst I totally agree with all the comments in you 're last post Tone, this one is the one I had to reply to.

I HAVE NO IDEA IF MY SONGS ARE ANY GOOD! 

That is down to critics and if there are ever any...fans! 

I love lots of stuff by musicians and bands that my friends and others think is terrible and without merit.... along with the majority of the population if the charts are anything to go by! 
So I find myself just writing what I believe is "quality" material. The main question in my mind is....Am I happy with it? The answer to that question (before release to the public) is usually a qualified yes. Technically I'm not a great player but if I can just feel like there's hope the song can get across to at least one other human being what I was trying to say.    I'm happy.

If I knew the secret of writing a great song, I'd be writing this post from the pool in my mansion in the Seychelles whilst waiting for my private jet! 
I fully understand the need to seek the 'Holy Grail' of song-writing and if I find it, you'll be  the first to know, but for now, I can only go with "gut feelings" and hope the rest of the world eventually finds it fashionable.

[tone]

If I knew the secret of writing a great song, I'd be writing this post from the pool in my mansion in the Seychelles whilst waiting for my private jet! 

Tongue in cheek, I realise, but I disagree! I've heard plenty of really great songs by amateur musicians that don't really stand a chance of being played in the charts because they're not written in the 'in' style. I think a good song is good, regardless of an commercial appeal or success, and actually, plenty of terrible songs do very well because they are accompanied by videos featuring nearly-naked young women. Fact!

I still think this discussion has room to grow - pile in, songwriters!

[hofnerite]

I think part of the issue here is the difference between the aim of songwriters.
If I thought that I'd never make any money from my songs, I'd stop today. Seriously. When I sit down to write a song, I am looking at commercial appeal and potential interest from publishers/buyers etc. Now, I don't necessarily get there in terms of writing a perfect commercial song but that is my 100% aim.

From being part of this board for a while now, I can see two distinct types of songwriters on here. Some are content with writing for themselves and friends etc with no real aim to get published. Others are in it to make money and/or promote their talent commercially. I am not saying that either are right or wrong, both take talent and can create brilliant songs. I do feel that the difference between the aims of songwriters leads to the differences "in what makes a good song" in the posts above and elsewhere.

Now, writing commercial songs, in many people's eyes leads to "better" songs because for the last 60 odd years, we have been told by the media that the more a song sells, the better it must be. I disagree to some extent but I do believe that, for me at least, judging a song is about more than just listening to the song. I take into account the writer/performer/performance, previous songs by that writer, the style, the talent involved, the message they are trying to convey, the difference between the recording and the live performance, if there is any etc etc. I can't always get that from non-commercial songs and therefore my compass always points towards that finished package. Maybe it's just me, I don't know! Does that make any sense?

[mihkay]

If I knew the secret of writing a great song, I'd be writing this post from the pool in my mansion in the Seychelles whilst waiting for my private jet!  

Tongue in cheek, I realise, but I disagree! I've heard plenty of really great songs by amateur musicians that don't really stand a chance of being played in the charts because they're not written in the 'in' style. I think a good song is good, regardless of an commercial appeal or success, and actually, plenty of terrible songs do very well because they are accompanied by videos featuring nearly-naked young women. Fact!

I still think this discussion has room to grow - pile in, songwriters!

You're right Tone. Right place, right time and a fashionable image does play a great part in success. I agree, that doesn't make great art. Van Gogh died penniless and unappreciated.
Lot's of room here for more discussion....... I'll think on!  

[Paul]

Great post Hofnerite,

I totally agree with your observations of two types of songwriter.  When I write, I try to strike a balance, trying to give my songs commercial appeal whilst also striving to achieve my own artistic goals. That can be a real battle! I'd love to achieve commercial success but would continue to pursue the elusive perfect song even if I couldn't achieve success or financial reward for my efforts.  What makes a good song? The obvious response is a great, memorable melody with smart, thought provoking lyrics that the listener can relate to, often evoking strong feelings of an event or time in their lives. That's what I believe anyway. To the next guy, a great song has to tick a whole new set of boxes. This is a difficult and very subjective question to respond to and so, this debate could well go on and on. Well done on raising this searching question Tone!

Paul
Aul

[TNMC]

Very interesting stuff here guys. For me, the process is this:
1, You hear the song somewhere and it catches your attention. You find yourself needing to hear it again.
2. You subsequently get to hear it again, and it works its way into your brain, ticking all the boxes on your own personal 'What it is I like about a good song' list (which, for everyone is, of course, completely unique).
3. With repeated listens you fall totally in love with it, and every time you hear it, you have the sweetest little eargasms.
4. You get a recording of it and include it in your own personal and ever-growing musical harem (ipod, cd collection etc.) with all the other songs you love, and for as long as you live, it should remain high on your list of little musical masterpieces.
5. In time you will - of course - move on to the next one (because there are so many out there and it is impossible to remain completely loyal to only one), but you will always have a special place for it in your musical memory. There may be exceptional circumstances of course, where something really bad happens to put you off listening to a song ever again - an emotional trauma in your life, maybe; or even when the artist f*cks it up for you (like with the whole Gary Glitter paedophile thing - all those poor, betrayed little people who were seventies teenagers... it's not a wonder punk happened!).  

There are so many reasons why you could judge a song to be 'good' - melody, harmony, counterpoint, lyrics, arrangement, atmosphere, purpose, relevance, etc... the point is that for you, it comes along at the right time and, for whatever reason, it really appeals to you and blows your socks off. The songs you love are part of the soundtrack of your life and their importance should never be underestimated. Don't you agree?

[Sonic-r]

"The songs you love are part of the soundtrack of your life."

Very true. (Sorry for posting before introducing myself, but this topic fired me up!)

I think whether a song is good or not depends on the genre. It's probably best if I select a few examples to illustrate what makes a good song for me.

Rutinas by Chenoa. I would guess, probably incorrectly, that a lot of people would listen to this song and describe it as middle of the road (a euphemism for 'uninteresting'), but there's a whistfulness in its harmonies that I find very evocative and takes me back to some of the songs that I first heard in the 1970s. That's why I've quoted TNMC. Sometimes a song catches you because of something inside you, a reminiscence or deep emotion. Rutinas, for all its simplicity, was my favourite song in 2010. However...

Feuer Frei by Rammstein. I don't want to be taken back to the 1970s when I listen to heavy metal. I want a full on wall of sound that sucks the breath out of my lungs. If heavy metal doesn't do that I'm not interested. The sheer intensity of Rammstein's sound is what makes their metal 'good metal.' (I won't go into their other qualities re irony, sense of humour and other things.) However...

Melting by Bissen. When I listen to trance the melody has to go with the other worldly airiness of the production to create that big sound that raises the hairs on the back of your neck. (Imagine me listening to good music and I'm left a physical wreck; hairless, breathless, melancholy!) Trance has to have those qualities otherwise it's just a repetitive noise. However...

Dr Buck's Letter by The Fall. Even the most cacophanous racket will have its merits if it's performed by Mark E Smith. I've analysed this guy for a long time now and it's the inventiveness of his work, the unpredictability of his music and the peculiar obscurity of his lyrics which seem to reveal their meaning almost by stealth. The Fall fall outside all musical categories (although one friend of mine described them as country and western, whilst another found them totally unlistenable). And finally...

Perdere l'Amore by Lara Fabian. Another essential component of a song's quality is how it is performed and when a singer such as Lara Fabian, the best in the world in my opinion, can rip your heart out for four minutes by her voice, body language, expressions and technical perfection, you're in the presence of greatness.

And so it goes back to genre. Lara Fabian, for all her skill, would never be a suitable lead singer for Venom, and Mark E Smith's complexity would jar in the middle of a trance mix by Aly and Fila. Good songs match the expectations of the genre and then exceed them; they are crafted and well performed, and then hit you physically or psychologically. And by being so memorable they become part of that soundtrack that travels with you through life.

[postmn]

i think a good song is made by how much you put yourself into, if u get what i mean

[Ramshackles]

I don't really understand the guys who say when they write a song they write with the 'commercial appeal' in mind. Wheres the enjoyment in that, wheres the fun?
I write what I want to hear and what I think sounds good. If other people like it, its a bonus. That doesnt mean I woudn't like success, because that would mean I can write and pay music all day every day. But if I had to write 'commercial songs' then you can keep your success.
What makes a good song depends on your genre/style. One thing that I think is at the heart of all good music is good musicianship. Melody is key for me, and lyrics to an extent.

[jim morrison]

good question, i think good structured lyrics help, i'd say the new Artic monkeys song has terrible lyrics on which would otherwise be a good song. Also i'd say having a bridge to the chorus etc. 

[gas 66]

I always recognise a good song when the songs been stripped to it's bare bones and it sounds as good as when fully produced.

I think a quality written song stripped down will always outshine a well produced average written song.

[Harbidge]

Wow!! a BIG question.

What makes a good song for me is firstly the vocal melody, it's the first thing most people latch onto whether they can hear the lyrics or not.

Secondly an above average musical idea, a great guitar riff (not just a chord progression) that is equally as catchy as the vocal melody and a riff that is repeated often.

and finally when the listener has gotten past the melody and the riff he needs a pay off in the lyrics, a good idea is to write something so ambiguous it can relate to any listener and they can apply it to what ever situation they find themselves in.  It is always a great way to reach peoples minds. If you write really specific lyrics, for example about war, you need to make sure they are absolutley the best you can do because you are trying to appeal to a more lyrically tuned ear. 

Thats what I think, its all subjective but thats my 2 pence.