[Olie]

Read the rest of it i edited it

Sorry not sure what you mean... What should i be looking at?... Ta!

"One question: What's the point of a amazing song if no one hears it?

I feel once you find the rules you can start to jump around them a bit for your own songs. Writing songs from your heart without considering what the listener wants could be argued as being selfish? This isn't really changing what you write it's changing how you write and the tools you have at your disposal, think if you had no way of knowing what words make sentence structure. How would you write at all? That's all this is, a structure to put your songs in.

If you're looking for a success story - the title for this thread seems to be working (and i made it in about 5 seconds). Check out the views and number of responses compared to others keeping in mind the time frame. "

[beckylucythomas]

Oh now i found it!..... Ok gonna read now! 

[beckylucythomas]

Read the rest of it i edited it

Sorry not sure what you mean... What should i be looking at?... Ta!

"One question: What's the point of a amazing song if no one hears it?

I feel once you find the rules you can start to jump around them a bit for your own songs. Writing songs from your heart without considering what the listener wants could be argued as being selfish? This isn't really changing what you write it's changing how you write and the tools you have at your disposal, think if you had no way of knowing what words make sentence structure. How would you write at all? That's all this is, a structure to put your songs in.

If you're looking for a success story - the title for this thread seems to be working (and i made it in about 5 seconds). Check out the views and number of responses compared to others keeping in mind the time frame. "

Just cos I'm posting in this thread doesn't mean you're making any money out of it! 

I totally agree that everyone can improve at their songwriting if they aren't too insular and introspective and learn from others' opinions and other successful pieces of writing. It's the writing to a formula bit i object to - especially when the formula is all about being controversial and attention seeking. As if following the formula and forgetting everything that's important to you is somehow a panacea. Maybe we should all be twerking our way to global superstardom 

[Olie]

Read the rest of it i edited it

Sorry not sure what you mean... What should i be looking at?... Ta!

"One question: What's the point of a amazing song if no one hears it?

I feel once you find the rules you can start to jump around them a bit for your own songs. Writing songs from your heart without considering what the listener wants could be argued as being selfish? This isn't really changing what you write it's changing how you write and the tools you have at your disposal, think if you had no way of knowing what words make sentence structure. How would you write at all? That's all this is, a structure to put your songs in.

If you're looking for a success story - the title for this thread seems to be working (and i made it in about 5 seconds). Check out the views and number of responses compared to others keeping in mind the time frame. "

Just cos I'm posting in this thread doesn't mean you're making any money out of it!  

I totally agree that everyone can improve at their songwriting if they aren't too insular and introspective and learn from others' opinions and other successful pieces of writing. It's the writing to a formula bit i object to - especially when the formula is all about being controversial and attention seeking. As if following the formula and forgetting everything that's important to you is somehow a panacea. Maybe we should all be twerking our way to global superstardom  

You're already writing to a formula (English language, rhyme schemes, grammar, spelling, how you feel) You just disagree with the formula I'm presenting because being popular now days automatically means your a sell out.

You can look at is as attention seeking or entertainment. Almost everyone hated Mileys twerking but boy we sure do love speaking about it. It's entertaining, of course she could have done more subtle things to slowly amp up her popularity than going balls out but I'm glad she gave me something funny to talk about.

What is attention seeking? Dying your hair, putting on makeup, wearing a new outfit, making a joke to get a laugh, drinking all night knowing you're going to make a scene? We all do it, there are just social norms that some people seem to get a headache about when people break them. Twerking on stage at a award event - bad, grinding against a guy at a club - good? Only difference is the amount of people who see it. Again i think it's all a balancing act.

Actually i didn't mention money, don't start thinking that's all i care about. I look at both sides of the coin and share the side most people are reluctant to accept as a requirement to make it.

[hardtwistmusic]

Doesn't this just take all the passion - and the joy - and actually, all the honesty - out of songwriting?

It makes it sound very cynical and mercenary, which makes me feel pretty sad!

I may be being naive but I'm willing to bet that no one i admire as a songwriter does it this songwriting-by-numbers way.

I'm not so naive as to think that the marketing part doesn't need to be at least a bit calculated if you're going to achieve some level of popularity....but not the songwriting part.

I'm sure some songwriters must do it the way you described, and do very well out of it, but I feel pretty sure that the songs i love have been written from the heart. And I'm happy to carry on writing that way, whether it brings popularity or not.

Of course that's not to say i don't think other people's opinions are important - otherwise there'd be no point being here on this forum....!

One question: What's the point of a amazing song if no one hears it?

A question in response.... What's the point of writing an amazing song and then making it not amazing just so that it will be popular? The amazing song still won't get heard.

The point of one is to write an amazing song; the point of the other is to make money and get attention. It depends what your priorities are, but i would rather aim to write something i can be proud of.

If I knew of a way to "write with a formula" to pay the bills, I'd do it.  Then, I could write whatever I wanted in my spare time.  1940s Author C.S. Lewis did that.  Wrote Christian apologetics in the front third of his books (the part the most people might actually read) then put really deep, questioning stuff in the back half of the book where only the serious intellects would find it. 

If I could do that, I'd sure do so.  I'm either not aware of the formula, or not talented enough. 

And.... fwiw... the formula outlined here is used by lots of unsuccessful folks that I know. 

I have no idea if it's used by successful ones.  If it is, they don't brag about it or admit it.

[Olie]

I have no idea if it's used by successful ones.  If it is, they don't brag about it or admit it.

They don't have to admit it, go analyze their music.

(You can know this stuff and still be unpopular, it takes skill to implement it!)

[Jess]

Intuitiveness
Use simple words.
(Most popular songs are at a fourth/fifth grade level in reading.)

Worst. Rule. Ever.
Look at Taylor Swift, just to name one of the incredibly successful and intelligent songwriters out there, she writes very intelligent lyrics that can be appreciated by many, even if they don't understand all the words. They may sometimes even be educational as they can add to their vocabulary from her lyrics- I know I've done this many times with people on the forum, I've seen words I don't know, googled them and added them to my collection. I get that your hook shouldn't be too complex but I'm not going to dumb myself down to make it a 'popular' song.

At the end of the day, who is the biggest pop song audience? Me. My generation are the largest consumer for pop music, we may be young but we're not stupid, we don't need monosyllabic, meaningless lyrics to buy a song.

And  anyway, I agree, there should be no RULES for songwriting. Yes you can pass on a few tips, but unless you're Bonnie Mckee and have actually had success, I don't think you should get too arrogant about your writing techniques.

[Olie]

Intuitiveness
Use simple words.
(Most popular songs are at a fourth/fifth grade level in reading.)

Worst. Rule. Ever.
Look at Taylor Swift, just to name one of the incredibly successful and intelligent songwriters out there, she writes very intelligent lyrics that can be appreciated by many, even if they don't understand all the words. They may sometimes even be educational as they can add to their vocabulary from her lyrics- I know I've done this many times with people on the forum, I've seen words I don't know, googled them and added them to my collection. I get that your hook shouldn't be too complex but I'm not going to dumb myself down to make it a 'popular' song.

At the end of the day, who is the biggest pop song audience? Me. My generation are the largest consumer for pop music, we may be young but we're not stupid, we don't need monosyllabic, meaningless lyrics to buy a song.

And  anyway, I agree, there should be no RULES for songwriting. Yes you can pass on a few tips, but unless you're Bonnie Mckee and have actually had success, I don't think you should get too arrogant about your writing techniques.

Arrogant? These are ideas that I've come up with and some points based off research, why is it arrogant to share and try to defend them? Funny you attack my ideas then say yours are right without doing any research. I agree there's no rules for songwriting but there are guidelines for writing popular songs. "we don't need monosyllabic, meaningless lyrics to buy a song." Did you read my post thoroughly? Go back to it and make sure you fully grasp each concept. I'm not saying it has to be meaningless to be popular.

From a quick Google search:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States
To have mass appeal you must have the average reading or comprehension in mind.

there's no need for circumlocution to make a good song haha. Taylor swift to my knowledge doesn't stray too far with using really massive words or extremely complex song concepts. You're disconnected with the general public if you think more than 1% of the population would go to the trouble to look up a word.

(it took a lot of time to put this together so please appreciate it, criticize to get rid of/build on the faulty points but make sure you come with more than hearsay)

[Jess]

This is a conversation not a scientific investigation, I'm not going to go out and do research, seriously  I have better things to do with my life- like writing songs that don't follow your guidelines.

[Olie]

This is a conversation not a scientific investigation, I'm not going to go out and do research, seriously  I have better things to do with my life- like writing songs that don't follow your guidelines.

You're Just going to cross your fingers and hope for the best? Good luck. I'm different i like to think carefully how I'm going to move my pieces on the chess board, the music business is cut throat and I'm not leaving a single piece out of formation.

I hope you have more motivation to do research on the industry so you don't get screwed on contract deals and lose all your royalties.

This song somehow seems appropriate:

[beckylucythomas]

You're already writing to a formula (English language, rhyme schemes, grammar, spelling, how you feel) You just disagree with the formula I'm presenting because being popular now days automatically means your a sell out.

You can look at is as attention seeking or entertainment. Almost everyone hated Mileys twerking but boy we sure do love speaking about it. It's entertaining, of course she could have done more subtle things to slowly amp up her popularity than going balls out but I'm glad she gave me something funny to talk about.

What is attention seeking? Dying your hair, putting on makeup, wearing a new outfit, making a joke to get a laugh, drinking all night knowing you're going to make a scene? We all do it, there are just social norms that some people seem to get a headache about when people break them. Twerking on stage at a award event - bad, grinding against a guy at a club - good? Only difference is the amount of people who see it. Again i think it's all a balancing act.

Actually i didn't mention money, don't start thinking that's all i care about. I look at both sides of the coin and share the side most people are reluctant to accept as a requirement to make it.

Writing in English and rhyming isn't a formula for anything other than communicating with English speakers and...rhyming. I don't pretend to be the world's greatest musical innovator, but writing in English with rhymes about feelings still allows for quite a lot of creative freedom, i think?!

I don't think a formula like the one you set out is either necessary or sufficient for popularity, and it's just not appealing to me. Nor is behaving like Miley. I don't care what she does - the point was, i don't think you have to be doing that to achieve success as a songwriter. And whilst i don't care what Miley is up to, I'm glad the whole world is not doing the same thing. Just like i don't care whether some people write formulaic songs but I'm glad the whole world is not doing it.

I'm not trying to argue that a formula can't be helpful to someone wanting to write that kind of music and have that kind of career, or even that that's not a legitimate aim. It's just not my aim, and i don't think it's the aim of every successful person.

This is not intended to shoot you down or dismiss your post. It is an interesting idea. This is just presenting a different opinion.

I love a good debate!  

[Olie]

You're already writing to a formula (English language, rhyme schemes, grammar, spelling, how you feel) You just disagree with the formula I'm presenting because being popular now days automatically means your a sell out.

You can look at is as attention seeking or entertainment. Almost everyone hated Mileys twerking but boy we sure do love speaking about it. It's entertaining, of course she could have done more subtle things to slowly amp up her popularity than going balls out but I'm glad she gave me something funny to talk about.

What is attention seeking? Dying your hair, putting on makeup, wearing a new outfit, making a joke to get a laugh, drinking all night knowing you're going to make a scene? We all do it, there are just social norms that some people seem to get a headache about when people break them. Twerking on stage at a award event - bad, grinding against a guy at a club - good? Only difference is the amount of people who see it. Again i think it's all a balancing act.

Actually i didn't mention money, don't start thinking that's all i care about. I look at both sides of the coin and share the side most people are reluctant to accept as a requirement to make it.

Writing in English and rhyming isn't a formula for anything other than communicating with English speakers and...rhyming. I don't pretend to be the world's greatest musical innovator, but writing in English with rhymes about feelings still allows for quite a lot of creative freedom, i think?!
So does this!

I don't think a formula like the one you set out is either necessary or sufficient for popularity,

Why? Have anything to add?

[/color]


and it's just not appealing to me. Nor is behaving like Miley.
Where did i say that was a good idea?!?!

I don't care what she does - the point was, i don't think you have to be doing that to achieve success as a songwriter.
Where did i say that twerking was essential to getting success?

 And whilst i don't care what Miley is up to, I'm glad the whole world is not doing the same thing. Just like i don't care whether some people write formulaic songs but I'm glad the whole world is not doing it.

I'm not trying to argue that a formula can't be helpful to someone wanting to write that kind of music and have that kind of career, or even that that's not a legitimate aim. It's just not my aim, and i don't think it's the aim of every successful person.
Sounds like you want to be successful without figuring out how to write popular songs, shooting in the dark much?

This is not intended to shoot you down or dismiss your post. It is an interesting idea. This is just presenting a different opinion.
Well you misread half of what i said soo.. I agree it doesn't shoot down my posts lol.

I love a good debate!  
Who doesn't, i feel like i must be speaking Spanish though, no ones understanding what I'm trying to convey.

[tone]

Maybe you don't understand, Olie - has it crossed your mind that some members just don't agree with you.

Please watch your tone around here.

[benjo]

 HEY

 I wonder if these two threads should be taken of the lyrics page
 for me they have no place here and just clog up the page

 thanks

[Olie]

 HEY

 I wonder if these two threads should be taken of the lyrics page
 for me they have no place here and just clog up the page

 thanks

Yet you just commented on it bringing it back up to the top you fucking idiot. Bunch of fucking retards on this forum.