[KEROUAC1957]

Hi it's my first post. I'm just getting back into songwriting and the bit I struggle most with is lyrics. Here's a problem I come across quite often. I'll write a lyric with much effort which looks good on the page but then when I come to sing it with my already prepared chords and melody it just doesn't scan very well. By that I mean it will fit in with the melody but perhaps the sound of the words doesn't sound as good as the temporary words I have been using to write the melody.

I am sure a lot of songwriters use temporary lyrics. But for me it is hard enough to come up with a meaningful lyric without having to concentrate on the phonetic sound of the words too. Am I being too analytical or do other songwriters get hung up on this too?

[Boydie]

Much depends on the genre you are writing in

If it is a type of folk or "adult contemporary" then this attention is worth the effort to make the best of well crafted lyrics

If it is pop or rock then the flow of the lyrics is arguably more important than the words themselves

A good trick for pop and rock is to write "conversationally" - write how people talk

Listen to people on the streets and in the shops etc. (especially the teens if you are writing pop) and note down some of the phrases

This should help steer you in the right direction

[tone]

Am I being too analytical or do other songwriters get hung up on this too?

No you're not, and yes they do.

I scrutinise every single line of my lyrics to make sure they not only scan well, but fit the content of the song, have some meaning and sound good when I sing them.

As far as I'm concerned this is what all the best songwriters do. Listen to Paul Simon. You'll have to listen for a long time before you hear a bad lyric.

But I think you need to close the distance between your melody and your lyrics to a certain extent. When I'm writing a song, I always have the melody first. But once I find some lyrics that sound and feel good, the melody almost always changes shape in a small way to accommodate them. These changes are usually subtle but actually have quite a lot of impact on the overall sound and feel of the song.

It stands to reason, if all the lyrics are well-phrased with no melodic conflict, your song is going to have more going for it.

But Boydie also offers good advice. Writing as though you're speaking works really well for songs. And with English being a naturally stressed language, it offers a lot of opportunity for you to find melody and rhythm in the words themselves, outside of the context of your song.

Which I know, leads you back to the original question. But I say keep working at it. If you want to hear how the masters do it, pull up the Paul Simon solo catalogue, Joni Mitchell, Tom Waits, Neil Finn from Crowded House (he's a bit more abstract, but very good match between melody and lyric).

[KEROUAC1957]

This has been very insightful feedback for my first post. It's really great to get some advice so thanks a lot.

The genre is rock/pop/ballad so I guess I should pay attention to the sound of the words.

But I think you need to close the distance between your melody and your lyrics to a certain extent. When I'm writing a song, I always have the melody first. But once I find some lyrics that sound and feel good, the melody almost always changes shape in a small way to accommodate them. These changes are usually subtle but actually have quite a lot of impact on the overall sound and feel of the song.

That has really helped me because I think I do try to stick to a melody once it is written and perhaps I should be more flexible. I usually think to myself "Would Lennon or McCartney have changed a good melody?" but perhaps the melody they ended up with wasn't the original and I'd never thought of that.

Paul Simon is great and I'm a massive Neil Finn fan.

[AlexMo]

Some people pay more attention to lyrics than others. I think it depends on the genre, largely because when the vocals are sung clearly and there aren't many distractions from them, the lyrics play a bigger role. Bob Dylan's lyrics would have been not only out of place but wasted (imo) in lots of genres like grunge, hardcore or whatever. Folk and rap are two genres that come to mind where the lyrics are an important feature. Kurt Cobain used to write lyrics that made little sense, partly drug-induced but partly because he (apparently) wrote lyrics that he liked the sound of rather than carefully crafting a meaning.

I don't personally use temporary lyrics. Of course I sing one thing one day and change it the next if I better idea comes to me, but I don't write out full lyrics and then replace them when the song is worked out. As songwriters we are constantly presented with choices, musical and lyrical. Quite often the choice is between a word or line that sounds more pleasing, and a word or line that you feel would be stronger if only read in written form. There is no solution, it's always a trade-off.

[Alan Starkie]

If you use an initial lyric for an idea as I certainly do, it's not a case of the changed lyric not fitting in. I't more that you've become used to the original one. Keep working on the new one and it will find it's place in the arrangement. Conversational lyrics are great. I never force a rhyming end to a line if the one I've got sounds good. Although, I may just be used to the original line.........

[KEROUAC1957]

Just a follow up to this discussion. I just read an interview with Billy Joel and he makes some great points about this topic. Here a relevant section:

A.G.: Is songwriting hard for you?

B.J.: Yeah, I relate to Beethoven. I write backward — I write the music first and then I write the words. Most people write the words first and then they write the music. Keith Richards was explaining his method of songwriting. He calls it “vowel movement.” They come up with a riff, and it’s like sounds, and whatever sound . . . like “start me up” — “up” works because it has a consonant at the end of it, but if you go “take me home,” it wouldn’t have worked. I kind of subscribe to that. It has to sound right sometimes even more than being a poetic lyric. It’s a struggle to fit words onto music, and I want it to be really, really good, so I take a long time. I love having written, but I hate writing. So then I go through postpartum depression, and it’s: “Ugh, I gotta start all over again? Where am I going to get the” — what do you call it? Sitzfleisch?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/billy-joel-on-not-working-and-not-giving-up-drinking.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

On a similar note there's also an interesting piece here about why American places sound better in songs than British ones  http://whatsheonaboutnow.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/why-american-place-names-sing-and.html

[Jess]

Listen to people on the streets and in the shops etc. (especially the teens if you are writing pop) and note down some of the phrases

And no we don't say LOL or ROFL...

[Boydie]

LOL