[tealeafreadinggypsy]

Hey everyone! I'm really getting into writing, but I have no aspirations of being a celebrity, a millionaire or being the artist that gets to record and release my songs, I want to write for other people in the pop industry.

Does anyone have any experience of this?

[Onelabel]

Yes I have experience, and my advice FWIW

There are thousands of pro writers out there who want to do the same as you. These are People who already have experience in writing and getting their songs placed with major artists.

Since a lot of money has disappeared from the music business over the last 10 years, one of the few revenue streams left is that of the writers -which is why you now often see so many people listed as "writers" of a track, including many artists themselves who in fact have often contributed nothing. Getting into this group is incredibly tough and essentially you need to be able to prove to the music industry that you have the necessary credentials.

Look at a few successful tracks and see who the writers are. Very often in pop the same names keep coming up. There are a number of VERY successful producer/writers out there who make a great living writing tracks for a number of top20 artists.

I suppose it's not unlike saying, 'I want to write movies for the major studios'. I'm not saying its impossible, but it does take a HUGE amount of work over a number of years in order to:
A) perfect your songwriting such that you're able to write a guaranteed top20 track
B) establish credibility in yourself and your ability to deliver quality songs
C) get connections to people who are genuinely in a positon to get your songs placed

I this doesn't come across as negative since that's. It my intention. However I just wanted you to know this is not a short term thing, but if you have talent, drive and a bit of luck you will succeed.

[S.T.C]

Thanks for your insight...i reckon it`s something a few know and the rest ought to get in their psyche........i came to the conclusion a while back it`s a case of `brand building`..your self/name, so a certain confidence is built up in the ones that might use you.

[Onelabel]

Youre absolutely right - and my pleasure.

I met a successful Nashville writer a while back (not my genre but very interesting to hear experiences there) and he had had a number of successful cuts with major country artists. When asked how he continued to be successful he responded 'its not a question of what you know - it's who you know!'

However he then went on to detail precisely how that was fair and just by saying that he had built up a reputation delivering really great songs and despite over a dozen country chart hits he still spends four to five nights 'in town' every week meeting people and networking.

He's in a great positon where he has the credibility such that if he believes he has a great new song- he knows he can get the right people to listen to it. That's the key!

It's the same over here, look at 'new' artists like Emile Sande, Rita Ora and Tom Odell and see what they've been doing for the past 2-3 years. They've all be collaborating with other artists, writing for others, singing for others etc. etc. Essentially they've all been networking and building credibility and respect within the business.

[Sing4me88]

Thanks for the great advice Onelabel. I'm kinda hoping someday I'll be able to make a couple of bob from my songs (whether the lyrics are good enough is another matter!) but I'm in the difficulty position of being neither a singer nor musician so I've started collabs with others and one thing I've come to realise is that I can't simply throw catchy and hooky lyrics and a rough vocal melody at someone and expect to make thousands of pounds from it the next week. I've really had my eyes opened to how long a process getting a song 'right' takes. I'm still light years behind when it comes to marketing, branding and networking - basically I can only pitch to publishers that put out an ad looking songs!

Your advice has been great and I'd love to get some more advice re actually getting a foot in the door with labels and publishers so I can build from there. I think getting 'in' is the biggest challenge as the rest would happen organically and automatically I reckon the stuff one writes would be given some extra street cred simply by being on the 'inside'. Kinda hard as I'm not an artist nor is anyone I collab with so it's difficult trying to pitch solely as a writer!

[Onelabel]

You are correct and it is sad that very often we can all hear a chart song and KNOW that we could find 20 better songs that are sitting unknown on somewhere like Reverbnation.

It used to REALLY bother me but doesn't anymore, after I heard a really neat quote 'saying you can write a better song than one you just heard on the radio is like saying you can make a better hamburger than McDonalds. Of course you can - but you can't market and distribute it as well, nor make 1 billion of them every day!' 

Now the Music business isnt the same as the fast food business - but its not THAT different either!

So the best advice IMO (and it's the route we took) is to collaborate as much as you can with others. 2,3 or 4 people working together have more of a chance then them working together. You don't have to form an 'exclusive' band if you don't want to, maybe you all work on different projects at the same time but come together regularly for your shared project.

IMO approaching the big labels and publishers is almost a waste of time, since it seems to me that they will come to you when they're interested. Certainly looking at the meetings I've had with labels over the past year has shown me that they expect you to have EVERYTHING in place. For example a band i know of has only recently started to gain label interest has achieved the following...
1) had a song played on radio 1 half a dozen times
2) are playing one of the summers biggest festivals
3) has a library of >25 recorded tracks, half a dozen of which are 100% solid bona fide 'hits'
4) look and sound fantastic
5) solid social media presence, YouTube, Facebook, twitter, website etc.

The phrase I have in the back of my mind is that you have to 'have an absolutely irresistible offering' ie you are so good that they feel by not signing you they will miss out and you'll go to the competition and they're regret it for the rest of their lives. Sounds a bit melodramatic but you know what I mean.

From a writing perspective just write and write and write and bounce your tracks off people you know and collaborate with. Improve where you can and always look to say things in a different way. Remember how Bruno Mars DIDN'T just say 'I love you', he said 'I'd catch a grenade for you'!

[seriousfun]

Good advice here from One label. If the first post was a multi choice question I would have picked

(c) get connections to people who are genuinely in a positon to get your songs placed


When they do come you for a song btw, they do not want one that has already been plastered all over the internet in forums, soundcloud, reverbnation etc... they want something totally new so anything you write in your journey to get known is probably not likely to get picked up early on in your career.

[Sing4me88]

Thanks for more advice SF. The key is defo getting them to those that call the shots yet my difficulty is getting to the attention of these people for even the briefest second!

One thing has struck me though you say labels, publishers, artists etc DON'T want a song that has been on Soundlcoud, reverbnation etc but how else is one supposed to create a profile for their songs? Advice I've picked up from elsewhere is to PUT songs on these sites to create exposure and get them out 'there'. In fact some labels, publishers etc state that their demo policy is solely to listen to on-line tracks via Soundcloud etc. Is there not a bit of a contradiction here or is there something really simple I'm overlooking?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, pedantic or rude I'm simply trying to use advice from various people and outlets to try and get some songs to the attention of those who can make money from them

[ShinyThang]

I've been following but not contributing to the thread about 'Writing for other artists' and was a little disturbed by one of the comments.

Seriousfun, who does know what he's talking about and who's opinion I greatly respect, said;

'When they do come you for a song (meaning people who are genuinely able to help promote you) btw, they do not want one that has already been plastered all over the internet in forums, soundcloud, reverbnation etc...'

I have spent most of my life keeping my material to myself for fear of being ripped or ridiculed but, then I discovered this forum and realised that other writers, and far better ones than me at that, just seem to post their stuff up on the forum for review. I still feel this has been a wonderful discovery which has opened the flood gates to a whole new world of creative talent and otherwise inaccessible entertainment. In addition to that I have found that joining in and posting my stuff has been so liberating, rewarding and educational I just wonder why I kept this to myself for so long. More surprising, for me at least, joining in has spurred me on to write more and more new songs. I the old days, if I was stupid enough to tell anyone I wrote songs I'd get that 'Oh you poor deluded thing' sort of look but now I can immediately back it up by saying just have a listen to my Soundcloud page if you're interested.

So, do you think that any songs published here really are doomed as far as any professional placement is concerned? And, if so, then what should we do with those songs that we feel may be strong enough to be selected?

[seriousfun]

Legitimate agents and producers are inundated with radio ready demos flooding their staff every day. Many have policies that unsolicited demos are simply binned and they only deal with contacts they know and trust. It is a very difficult market to break into.

The agents who troll places like reverbnation are scam artists trying to sell their ineffective services in my book. Not that there is anything wrong with sites like reverbnation, they do their job fine it is the people who pray on people's egos for financial gain that I take issue with. The common scam is to tell you that they have found you in their search for quality songs and think that one of your songs would be perfect to pitch to artist x. But to be successfull they will need to produce a radio ready demo. This will cost money and trust me it won't be heard.

You see, if agents are so inundated with quality demos that they binning half of them, why would they waste time trolling websites where most of the artists are of my calibre or less, it just doesn't add up.

My previous post was not degrade this site or any others. When you era learning your craft and trying to establish a reputation these sites are invaluable for feedback nod getting your name out there. But one day if you write that magical song that you believe has a realistic chance then get it demoed and pitch it - don't post it.

Good luck with your endevours.

[seriousfun]

As you were posting this I was replying to this very point in the original thread that you mention. Please check that post as it offers a far more in depth opinion on this topic than my original throw away comment was able to make.

It's a yes and no answer. There significant merits and benefits in posting music on the Internet but there are associated limitations. This is not limited to forums but any posting even on iTunes for sale. The thing to keep in perspective is what s gay our aim? Do you want to write music that people listen to or do you want make music and horde it away. I work on the principal I want people to hear my music. I am also totally realistic and as of yet do not believe I have written a single song that could be successfully pitched. If I ever do get that breakthrough song, I would look at a professional agency to pitch for me and hold that particular song back. If it was successfull and gave me the start it is then quite possible that my back catalogue would become more marketable.

Those are my thoughts. Keep or sweep.

[Sing4me88]

Thanks for the elaboration on your earlier post SF,it makes more sense now. From what I gather it's a case of sticking a few songs up to say 'hey this is what I'm capable of and this is what my style/songs can sound like and if you like them wait until you hear what I've hidden away from preying ears!'. Given a taster without given away the plot punchline I guess!

I'm still kinda in limbo when it comes to actually getting the 'contacts' that you allude to. Is there any advice that you or any other poster for that matter might be able to offer in relation to this? At the end of the day no matter how good a song is unless it actually falls into the lap of someone in the know (no matter how circuitous a route it takes!) it is essentially worthless and might as well be plastered all over the internet!

[Boydie]

I completely disagree

Record labels and publishers are looking for "guaranteed" hits - the days of taking risks seem to have gone (which is why the name of the pitching game is to write something different - but not too different!)

If a song is doing well on Soundcloud, YouTube etc. then I would say this works in your favour

A label would not turn down a song that is getting millions of hits - they will have dollar signs in their eyes - not just for the song that is doing well but for the writers potential to write more of the same!

As OneLabel has so rightly said - a label is looking for the whole package from the start - so you need the hit song(s), the fan base, "the look" etc. etc.

To achieve this you need to get your stuff "out there"

Labels / publishers do get sent loads of radio ready demos but they do not get loads of potential hit songs - they are still crying out for a guaranteed hit song

It is just the case that the pro songwriters hit the mark and get their tracks to the right people at the right time

Writing a hit song is hard enough - but this is just the first step on an even more difficult journey that involves LOTS of hard work, netwroking, closed doors, rejections etc. etc.

I will try and merge the threads as this seems to be a good discussion

[Boydie]

Hi All

I have merged the 2 threads discussing "Writing for other artists" and "damaging your chances by posting songs here" as I felt there was the potential for duplication and missing lots of useful info

[Onelabel]

I share Boydie's view on this - get your songs out there. IMO the ONLY chance you have of getting your songs considered by a publisher is to establish both your/its credibility. Essentially a song (and or artist/writer) is considerably more interesting to publishers when they have 10m views/listens than another who has 100.

The other thing that you may have noticed is that when a label or publisher does sign up an artist/songwriter, the first thing they do is shut down (or take an axe to) whatever original material they have on Reverbnation, MySpace, YouTube etc. pulling songs from iTunes too. This allows them to take stock of what the artist has - and what may be of interest to them. For this reason I always suggest writers sign non-exclusive deals with sync agencies etc- so basically they can claw sogs back IF they get serious interest.

IMO Unless you have millions of views then even a few thousand listens won't bother a publisher - since 99.9% of their target audience won't have heard the song. If you have a few million listens then that's a different issue - but actually a good 'problem' to have.