[Boydie]

But the reason this discussion keeps coming up is the lack of good will by forum users

A "cast iron rule" needs to be enforced

It can't be "cast iron" one minute and reliant on good will the next  

I agree that any rule needs to be enforced by the mods and I also completely agree that the "rules" need to be cast iron

The tricky bit is balancing the rules/policing with the friendliness/goodwill of the forum

It is VERY difficult to achieve and I think TONE does an excellent job of taking all of these differing views into account and coming up with sensible solutions

If you get a review, return the favour basically. If you don't want to return the favour, leave the forum.

The problem is that this is not how it works in reality

Some join the forum, post a song or two, get lots of reviews, not contribute much (if at all), disappear, come back months later, post some songs, get loads of reviews, not contribute much (if at all),  disappear - rinse and repeat

In the "olden days" the forum was "tight enough" to ensure that repeat offenders got ignored and eventually disappeared

Now the forum is busier (a good thing) the repeat offenders still get good value from the reviews (eg by newer members) without contributing much to the forum

As I have always said I find this a tricky one as I really enjoy reviewing songs so I don't particularly mind the "wanderers" - everyone can choose who they give reviews to or not so I do not get particularly bothered by the "fly by nighters"

I do enjoy these discussions though as it is great to thrash things out every now and again and if it leads to improvements to this wonderful place then that is great - but I am personally quite relaxed where it ends up

I would be equally happy with a laid back casual forum (where we may lose those that want a more rigid structure) or a rigid structure with cast iron rules (where I think we could lose the more relaxed/casual members)

If I HAD to choose I would go for the cast iron rules so that everyone knows where they stand

We seem to be sailing somewhere between the 2 on this forum, which are potentially dangerous waters IMHO, as discussions like this will keep cropping up causing disruption

However, I think everyone gets more value from the forum than they give so a mass fallout is unlikely, which is why it is such a nice place to "hang out"

[Dutchbeat]

totally agree with Boydie

and sorry to begin about this again....but we (cast in iron) that the forum rules are that new forumites post an introduction e-mail

can respond to verything and any song right away, but are expected only to start posting their own work after they have joined for a week, so that they know a bit about the other members and music etc

so, no difficult technical solution, but just the expectation or rule that you can join in on everything right away, but you cannot start with your first post being your own song, first get a feel for what the forum is about

i am sure that people whose intentions it is to only post their own work will go to other sites where they can have the immidiate gratification of putting there work out to the world

and i am saying this realising i also put my music up in my first post....and i understand people want to do that, we all want our new song to be heard right away, but this was a time when the forum had another speed as far as new posts were concerned. Looking at the forum stats, the number of new topics and the number of post is ten times higher as back then and people were extremely happy when a new song was posted  , finally something to comment on...

well, actually very nice to see that is forum is such a huge success....perhaps we old forumites should just be happy with that, but it is hard to keep up with all the new songs and to know who is who

[Alan Starkie]

It is good to see the forum becoming so popular but it feels a little less personal with the sheer amount of posts lately. Amazing.

I joined a few months back and the change is unbelievable.

How on earth have so many people found it? I literally stumbled across it.

It's both good and bad. Good for the newbies who have found it (I count myself amongst them) and a little disconcerting for the long term members who maybe feel that something is being lost.

I think the answer is probably with Dutchbeat.

[S.T.C]

Whats needed is to open up another road...not re-shape the whole road system..

Slowing down traffic..will create problems...we just need 2 main review forums..more choice in other words.

[Boydie]

perhaps we old forumites should just be happy with that, but it is hard to keep up with all the new songs and to know who is who

Yeah, well said Donaldboris                

[tone]

Hmm so I've had a look around and this forum software that I'm using at the moment is looking more and more like we've outgrown it.

Which poses a bigger problem. Some of the changes I would have made are unworkable without automating them, which means migrating to better software (time & money).

Maybe it's cos I've had the flu, but I even wondered how it would feel to close the forum to new members for a while, just while we figure out what's what - or operate an invitation system, or ask potential newbs to request an invite (telling us/me why they deserve on :p ).

Or we could halve the number of new submissions to the reviews forum by asking that the one song per week rule be extended to one song per fortnight.

I'm wondering if the sudden influx of new blood might also warrant an increase in the number of mods...

Not wishing to act hastily, yet realising something must be done, I await any further comments

[mihkay]

I think it's great that the forum's popularity is growing but it does make it rather difficult to keep up.
However, I'll tell y'all what would help me. 

Make your songs for review downloadable chaps. 

I spend hours sitting in the car on my way back and forward between jobs and this is dead time. If I had a couple of cd's worth of new songs to listen to.............
Whereas when I'm at home I have lots of things to do. New house has a big garden with a veg patch to get into shape. decorating to be done and I'm still trying to find the time for the "Garage to Studio" conversion, never mind trying to do my own material. All of which has to be squeezed in whilst trying to earn a living.

Secondly, I'm not actually very good at reviewing songwriting. Reviewing production I can have a stab after a single listen, but actually "songwriting", I don't really know how to do it. So once again I need to spend time, that could be more profitably for me, be spent doing something else. 

So, I'll try and get back into the listening and reviewing, 'cause I have been away for a while, but... I'll be doing it on the move. So if I can't download it a review is much less likely.

cheers chaps

Mihkay

[S.T.C]

Hmm so I've had a look around and this forum software that I'm using at the moment is looking more and more like we've outgrown it.

Which poses a bigger problem. Some of the changes I would have made are unworkable without automating them, which means migrating to better software (time & money).

Maybe it's cos I've had the flu, but I even wondered how it would feel to close the forum to new members for a while, just while we figure out what's what - or operate an invitation system, or ask potential newbs to request an invite (telling us/me why they deserve on :p ).

Or we could halve the number of new submissions to the reviews forum by asking that the one song per week rule be extended to one song per fortnight.

I'm wondering if the sudden influx of new blood might also warrant an increase in the number of mods...

Not wishing to act hastily, yet realising something must be done, I await any further comments

What sort of money are you looking at ? if there's going to be a root and branch change..why not make it a good one...

More boards...links ...genre forums ..not just a single review one...being able to handle the traffic is better than blocking and delaying it.....surely.

[tone]

It's not so much the money - I think the licence fee for the software I would like to use is about £100 or less - and it's a one-off fee, so not actually very significant.

What poses the real problem is the time investment. It's going to take a lot of time (time I would otherwise use to do paying, client work).

Maybe I need to team up with another songwriting web-smith...

[seriousfun]

I have seen other forums that have gone down the road of splitting genres up and putting them in their own sub directories and it comes with its one set of problems.

We need to acknowledge that although we have a large influx of new members, the majority of the reviews are posted by an ever decreasing percentage of the members. If we split genres then some genres will receive very little in the way of interest and feedback. The current system forces me to listen to music that I would not generally listen to by choice simply because it lies outside my chosen genres. This is good. It widens my musical appreciation and influences e into different directions. I guess if we tread carefully and limit the number of genres sections it may work but I feel the real solution is to qualify the members in some way.  A smaller number of quality members is far mar beneficial than a huge numbe of members who contribute little.

I enjoy reviewing music and listening to what people are doing. Absorbing new ideas and learning new techniques and directions but it is at times frustrating to find yourself reviewing dozens of individuals who never have the courtesy to review any of your own work.

I share Tina's frustrations but without the resentment.  I am now keeping a spreadsheet of who I review ad who reviews me so that when the board is so busy that I cannot afford the time of reviewing all song postings I can ensure that I at least review those that contribute positively.

[S.T.C]

Well there`s a way out of that..time would have to be paid for....

If though a tweak to the site.to help it deal with the increase in recorded songs(which is what this is all about really) why not change collaborations..it doesn`t really do much ...i think collab`s happen in other places anyway...just make it , review forum number 2..for new members and W.I.P. ...?

[Ramshackles]

I don't think an increase in mods is that necessary.
There isn't too much to mod anyway and you don't want an over-zealous approach to modding where we are chastising people left right and centre just for not posting 100% according to the rules.

Making a request to join could ward off spammers. They needn't say why they want to join, just the mere fact that they have to go through the hassle of waiting to be approved might ward off most spammers.

I still think the first forum people will always want to post in will be reviews, and people always want to get posting their thoughts/songs/ideas as quick as possible, rather than joining in old threads. Doesn't necessarily mean they won't become good members.


It all depends on what you want from the forum.

a) A 'closed' group of a few people to have a chat and review each others work (perhaps you are already there, then dont let anyone else join!)

b) An growing forum that can eventually compete with the biggest/most active forums out there. Perhaps at some point you might want to generate income from it etc etc..

If it's a) then maybe it just as simple as setting a member cap. Then also keeping tabs on inactive members. IF someone is inactive for a couple of weeks, send them an email. If they dont respond within a couple of weeks then they lose their membership and you re-open registration until the member cap is reached again.

If it's b), then there will always be people that use the forum in a different way to your intentions. But then the idea is to adapt and grow with it. Like any big forum/subscription place...gearslutz, facebook, whatever...
If there are a lot of people that just want to post their songs/show off their work/get a clap on the back, then perhaps a sub-forum for people just to post finished works as suggested. No reviews necessary and no obligation to ever look in there 
Might open up a new area of people that just want to have a listen to some unsigned music...

[Boydie]

I agree with SF that having sub forums by type/genre would not be a good thing

Thanks to Hab, Monty, JN and others I have actually grown to appreciate, and even like  , folk music

If there was a "folk" subforum for reviews I probably would never have ventured in!!

There is also the issue of trying to identify the genre

RAMSY is right about choosing the "goal" first and then adapt accordingly - only TONE can answer this one, which may need some careful thought!

For a quick, easy, and cheap fix I think:

Change posting to fortnightly and enforce this as a cast iron rule (may need more mods? - there are enough good people here thst are nkt over zealous but will enforce rules fairly)

Introduce a new WIP Reviws Forum - making sure it sits underneath the reviews forum on the board list (not as a subforum within the reviews forum like the old competitions forum)



Along with the longer "front page" I think this would cope with the influx, especially if "the core" made an extra effort to post ands review in the wip to get it going

I already have stuff I would post in the wip for feedback that is not ready for the proper review board - I am sure there are others in the same boat

The 2 week rule should also apply to the wip forum IMHO

I think this would be a good "quick fix" until a long-term strategic dirction is decided by TONE

[S.T.C]

Some peeps are looking at this place from the perspective of a club/song writing circle...when in fact it`s a place to showcase...also the amount of people wanting to showcase is going to increase to the point that even with a 2 week rule/guideline...could still mean 30 songs plus a week being submitted ,and then were back to square one.

Most people have a fairly good idea of the genre of their song...so i can`t see a pop song going into the country/folk section and visa versa..

One or two saying they wouldn`t venture out of their comfort zones if it wasn`t right there in front of them..doesn`t represent the experience of everybody.

But this is all for the future..opening up a second forum for songs seems the most pressing move..i don`t really submit songs ,so i`m not speaking from any selfish point of view ...

[habiTat]

I feel like a broken record but again I agree with everything Boydie says, I think those steps would help a lot, I for one would use the wip board, if I'm honest, due to my limited production skills and eagerness to share new ideas, the wip board would probably become home for most of my material.

A two week limit also sounds good to me.