[habiTat]

Just an idea, with the forum growing so fast and with a super fast moving reviews board (I posted voting details for the comp yesterday morning and it had fallen off by the evening!) we run the risk of  older members seeming to fade and lose interest, and the whole thing becoming vacuous and stale.

What are your thoughts on people volunteering, or being invited to join a Core members group?

We can kind of 'pledge' to maintain the community spirit, welcome new members, get them involved and make them appreciate and embrace what we've got, before it goes. We can make the effort to involve ourselves in collaborations and competitions and generally just help keep the whole thing together.

It's just an idea but Kafla and MOSP have echoed my concerns already.

[S.T.C]

Your right that new people seem to be joining thick`n` fast and songs are disappearing off the main`stage`..... not sure how an `inner circle` of members will rectify that...for sure, on any forum peeps that stay around and contribute tend to make the place their own and take a hand in governing it....

Maybe a `what`s new` page...where songs only can be placed.....of course we could all just spend more time looking through the sections and not concentrate on the home page........

I`m all in favour of  genre`s being separated , but that means more work for admin.....

[Boydie]

This has come up before and is always a very split discussion

For what its worth here are my views...

"An inner circle"

Although my first reaction to this is that it is a bad idea I think the reasoning behind it is good

I would prefer to see a "membership" type set-up, where the forum has a public and "members only" section

The main review boards remain public but there is a "members only" section to the forum for a more "private" chat

I have loads of info I would be more inclined to share if there was a section not everybody could see - eg publisher leads, "tip sheets" etc.

The decision would be how to you have a criteria for membership

This could be easily figured out - if a public member shows the right approach in posting and reviewing a "mod" invites them to become a full member - which would be a nice reward for being a "good guy/gal" and would encourage them to stay around

Just a thought but I appreciate others would not want/like a "2 tier" system, although I think it is fine as long as it is "open to all" to prevent "cliques" - which are inevitable anyway and currently possible via PM!!!


Reviews Forum

I have made the following suggestion many times before...

I would like to see the review forum split in to "works in progress" and "finished songs"

It does seem a little unfair when the same song gets posted over and over as it is progressing

I also think it would help with the reviews as I would give a "work in progress" a different type of review than a finished song

As it stands I sometimes feel it is tricky giving a review not knowing this - if someone has paid hundreds of pounds to make a demo in a studio they probably dont want to hear that the chorus should be "hookier", whereas a "work in progress" (wip) may be looking for just this type of feedback

I would love to post a barebones song for feedback but I see the current reviews forum as suitable for "finished" songs

People have commented before about the negative impact of "dividing" the forum but I do not think this would happen as I would foresee songs progressing from the "wip" forum into the main "finished song" forum - so it woukd actually get MORE exposure/feedback imho

I actually think it will also help us be more constructive and "coach" those new to songwriting within the "wip" forum

Just my $0.02

[habiTat]

@Boydie

All great ideas, I'm in favour, definitely.  

How to implement them though? and is there enough support?

We could ask Tone's opinion, it's his forum after all...

TONE!  

TONE  

[Dutchbeat]

i agree with all Boydie says and ever will say

no, seriously
i do 

[jmacdon]

As a part-time member, here is my €1 worth (or for those in Cyprus, my €0.7 worth).     Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I don't think the changes discussed are truly workable or necessary.     

Although the forum is growing, the "core" membership always remains fairly intact - and the regular posters continue to provide awesome support to both new and existing members.

By creating sections, whether that may be for members vs non-members or demos vs finished songs, I fear that this will create a more cumbersome website requiring much more navigating around - so when I log-in, do I go to the demo section first or do I go to the finished song section?  Too many choices (if, when, why, what, how much have you got -  sorry, PSB went through my head there....).  As such, I would probably then focus on one section rather than another - which means I'm probably missing out on good quality content from that very section.........

The current set-up is fair because recent posts and comments are listed at the top.   In order to capture the posts that are falling off the page, then I would encourage all members, to consider not just page 1, but also click onto pages 2, 3 etc to catch-up on older activity.   Many of my posts relate to page 2 activity - so this, to me, is natural.

Toodle pip.   

[Kafla]

You know it's mental but I find Myself explaining this forum to my friends and family and they are like WTF?

It really means that much to me!

Maybe a simple solution is just to extend the amount of posts every page can hold so that you get longer exposure on page 1 

[tone]

Hey guys!

I'm here and hearing your ideas & suggestions. Not sure how I feel just yet, but I'm not against the idea of creating a more exclusive part of the forum for key supporters.

My main concern is twofold: with the best members occupied in the exclusive area, will the rest of the forum suffer as a result - and secondly, it's a lot of work on my part, and I'm really busy at the mo.

Here's a possible solution that I've seen a few other forums adopt. How about a new section(s) of the forum open exclusively to supporters. Supporters pay a nominal subscription fee on a monthly/ annual/ whatever basis, and get a list of benefits that aren't available to non-subscribing members.

If you think there's demand for this, I'll need to change the forum software in order to bring in the kind of features that would make it work. Like I said, it would be a lot of work, but if it's what the forum needs, I'm all ears.

If anyone else has any other suggestions I'm all ears, and as always, happy to consider all ideas.

[montydog]

I completely agree and support everything Boydie has said. Spot on as far as I'm concerned.
I think the idea of 2 separate "rooms" for unfinished and finished songs is brilliant. It would slow down the turnover of songs which at the moment is crazy. Weeks of work writing and recording a song for it to get  maybe a dozen reviews and off the front page in a few days. It's disheartening.

A "works in progress section" would encourage people to review the song, not the production. I sometimes think this should be the song producer's forum rather than a song writing forum because production and arrangement seem more discussed and critiqued than the actual song itself.

I think an inner circle is potentially divisive but I think it could work. I would see it's principle function would be to encourage an improvement in the way people behave on the forum - an incentive to "play the game" so to speak. Posters endlessly commenting on other members reviews of their song to bump it back to the top of the page, people posting a song for comment before they have reviewed even 1 song, one line reviews like "Yeah, pretty good song, quite like it" would all hopefully be reduced.

I'm right behind you Boydie  

PS I'd be happy to pay a subscription if I was thought of as worthy of membership.

[Boydie]

I actually agree with a lot of what JMACDON is saying and this is definitely a valid opinion of the "other point of view" that came up in previous discussions

I would however add that there already are separate forums that people choose to go to depending on what they fancy posting / reviewing - there are members that I have never interacted with on the lyrics forum as I choose not to review lyrics without hearing them as part of a song

Many members do not post in the production, resources, writing process forums but they are still really valuable to me

A "work in progress" forum would be another area people can choose to post in and or review - and MONTY is spot on when he says this would focus more on the song - especially as feedback may even directly contribute to improving the song, with it being a wip

The main review forum will remain the most popular and I would still anticipate "works in progress" to get posted as finished songs in this forum - where previous reviewers can comment on how it has improve as normal and new reviewers can review the finished song

I think this approach may help cope with the recent influx of new members - which is a great thing and should be encouraged/catered for

[Michael]

I wouldn't generally be opposed to a "Core" section restricted to... well, to who?

How would that separation of the forum be handled?

I've seen other forums use the number of posts as a prerequisite to enter the "members only" section - which would probably result in people (not all of them of course) spamming the review section with one-liners like "Geat song, nice work!" to get their post-count up.
Another approach would be manual selection by the mods, which sounds like a lot of additional work for them and seems rather abitrary.

Then there's the method TONE suggested, the subscription fee. I think that might actually work best, since most of the people that newly arrive here would not be willing to pay, while the regulars might be happy to.
Then again, that would involve a lot of work on TONE's side...

I am however asking myself... what would be the purpose of this Core section, what would it be used for?
BOYDIE mentioned more private information like publisher leads. I agree that this is stuff you wouldn't want to post in a public space, visible for everyone. But if you really want to keep something secret, there's still the PM system.
Also, I think such a "members only" section would not really address the problem HABITAT originally mentioned, i.e. the flooding of the review section and the fact that single threads are easily lost due to the sheer speed at which the board moves.
As I said, I'm not opposed to the idea itself, but so far I struggle to see its purpose.

The proposal to split the review board into two sections, one for work in progress and one for finished songs, sounds like a really good idea to me.

[Kafla]

Yeah I agree with what Boydie is aiming for

Few questions -

Are we saying finished songs rather than wip just get a ' I listened ' rather than being critical - just thinking if someone says it's finished and then were all like - you need to fix this and that wouldn't they get mad ?

Love the idea of a wip - I feel I need go get songs almost bullet proof before I post them as someone will spot something wrong - I usually send my songs to Paul Vasey and DB.

Speaking of Paul Vasey - he has left the forum but seemingly no mods tried to retain him - surely we should be trying to keep guys like Paul on the forum ?

I also think a minimum post limit to unlock a room or benefits would work - say 200 posts - kick out those that spam that get to 200 - we wouldn't want them anyway

And lastly I would be reticent to pay for the use of this site - I already chat with a lot of you directly by email for more private issues - no offence Tone , you do a wonderful job - just being honest !

[tone]

No offence taken Kaf - I didn't set this forum up with the idea I would make money from it. Just trying to reconcile the possible large amount of work to introduce certain features.

Some interesting points being made. Carry on chipping in folks

[habiTat]

I have to agree with Kafla re. making it a pay site, money is tight and I wouldn't be able to justify the cost to my OH. This hobby already consumes too much of my time in her opinion 

I do think that a wip board would help massively though, it would slow the reviews board down and would actually make for very interesting reading, people could give and receive detailed reviews for songs in their early stages. I'd love to hear kaf or Boydie post a rough guitar/vocal track, bare bones stuff, and we could follow the development right through to the finished song on the reviews board.

That may also be a fairly easy solution, not that I know anything about making a forum, but the comps board went up easy enough I think, could it be as simple as adding a new board?

[James Nighthawk]

Nice balanced discussion here, good to see. To quote Ms Mitchell, "I don't know where I stand!" 

- As I see it, the main bug bear here is that the board is so busy that songs are flooding the pages. Instead of our songs getting a solid week of rotation where all the regulars can chip in, they drop quickly and that seems unfair. We are more likely to feel bitter towards the fly-by posters because of this. In an IDEAL world, this place should act like a virtual songwriters circle, with an asynchronous delay of upto a week. In these circles, if 8 people turn up, they play a song each and get 7 lots of feedback. Fair as can be! In such a circle, were someone to drop in midway through the session, play a song, take their reviews and leave, such a person wouldn't be let in the next week  The trick is making this, or close to this, a reality on the internet; a place of cold hearts and ill manners. The internet is not governed by default by such good manners. Hell, I have admitted on here to slightly abusing Google+ and Tumblr for self promotion. The difference is, they are soulless corporate mechanisms. This place means something to "The core" and is closer to a songwriter's circle than ANYTHING else online.

To lose this place to a spamming board would be saddening


- Dividing the board down to WIP and finished will spread posts, but will one board simply take precedence? Equally, I am happy to review both types of song, and where they sit is irrelevant to me.

- As Kaf mentioned, having a finsihed/WIP will also beg the question of do we critique differently? I tend to post finished songs, but I am happy, willing in fact for people to pick them apart so I take that feedback for FUTURE songs. Other people want to improve existing songs. I did exactly that this week editing a mix that Kaf mentioned was boomy. So ALL help is useful.

- Payment wouldn't bother me if if was a few quid a month (plus mine would be tax deductable , lol!!) HOWEVER - as soon as a payment sub comes in you have the risk, only risk mind, of an elitist subsection...

- I wonder if also the fact that no-one has the time to review everyone drops the intinacy of this place? Until about 3 months ago I was able to find an hour twice a week to catch up and review nearly every song. It made me feel like I had "ticked off" my duties on here, and the feeling of completion was nice, that I has "done my part". Now I would need more time than I have, so the sea of bold text is a little disheartening. Is this simply something we need to get past, as the place grows?

- If the ABOVE is an issue, perhaps a simple approach would be to switch the posting spread from one a week to one a FORTNIGHT. I'll admit this is easy for me to say: I post one a month on average. Now, while this may seem limiting, surely more listens will come of each track this way, and it will encourage longer term commitment? Perhaps (optimism here) by somewhat enforcing newbies to be patient, they'll have a better chance to see what the benefits are of joining in properly?