[DJonKelly]

Hello all you songwriters out there.
I know we all work hard at doing a good job of writing and recording, and I'm sure that we mostly enjoy the process and the outcomes, but I have a question.
Does anyone have DIRECT knowledge of anyone, producing their own compositions, actually making any money out of it?
I'm old enough to be realistic about this and I listen to advice and experience and to do so I have looked into several sites that suggest that they can help pitch music to the industry. As far as I can see they mostly , if not all, want an up front payment for us to even send them stuff for consideration. I may be being cynical here but it does seem to me that we could spend lots of cash with no real prospect of earning a penny.
One site I looked at offered as a suggestion for getting an "in" to the music industry, that we send copies of any material to any friends in the music industry, ..duh!
Anyone want to discuss?  Keep writing.

[S.T.C]

Yes i know some one who`s got a recording contract...an A&R man spotted her...quality plus image..was the key....

Of course you can self publish and sell direct too the world..probably the most realistic option for most of us,

aut viam inveniam aut faciam
I will either find a way or make one

[DonMar]

Yes, I know of a couple of people as well. It's a hard slog, though.

Have you tried submitting to music licensing agencies? Through one of them, I placed a song in a TV series (one episode) last year. Some - e.g. like www.musicdealers.com - have regular pitching opportunities. Check out www.musiclibraryreport.com.

You'll find heaps of information and discussion on which libraries/agencies are the most efficient and reputable. What they do is keep your music - if it meets a particular standard - on file in a catalogue. These catalogues can be accessed by people looking for music for film/tv, advertising, artists, or whatever. Some actively try to match the music on file with requests they receive. The libraries earn their fees only if/after they've succeeded in licensing the music.

Donna

[tone]

Yes I also know someone who's had their music used on TV via sentricmusic.com - I have no idea what kind of money we're talking, but it was used on terrestrial TV one of the main 5 channels.

I'm really not sure about paying for the privilege of having your music considered though... I know its tempting, but I bet those agencies make a killing.

[DJonKelly]

Hi all responders.
It's encouraging to know that there is some chance though I will still remain a little sceptical particularly with those pay to pitch sites.
I will keep plodding on and I'll look at the sites you mention.
Does anyone else get bogged down in the software side of home music production? I have just spent all day fiddling with Reason to do the simplest things. I'm a musician not a programmer and I find it all a bit time consuming just to get a backing working. So far I have more succss with Band in a Box and Prop'head Record.
Dino

[Boydie]

Hey DINO

It all boils down to your goals

If you are writing songs with a view to getting published and making a career out of songwriting you do need to approach things a little more "commercially" - not just in your writing but also your approach to pitching songs

The romantic cliche of sending in a cassette of you singing and strumming a guitar to a record company are long gone

The standard of "pitches" nowadays need to be "radio quality" - not just in writing but also performance and production

You always need to remember that you are pitching your songs against PROFESSIONAL writers that already have success, credibility, contacts, their own recording studios, pro session artists etc.

Record companies and publishers are looking for the very best songs for their needs (which do vary but there are definitely common themes) and don't care if it is a newbie - ie they are not looking for new songwriters to develop like they do artists - they just want the best songs

However, this is also an advantage as you will be on the same footing if/when you do pitch so you need to make sure it is the best it can be

As for the "paid for pitching" sites I think you are right to be skeptical

The first thing to do is decide whether your songs are COMMERCIAL enough (note, I did not say "good" enough - there are many excellent songs that would not succeed in a pitch because they are not "current" enough - whether you love or hate pop and Justin Bieber, that is they type of song artists are looking for at the moment)

I do want to get a song "picked up" and published within the next few years and recently had some interest from a publisher from some tracks I sent in

They offered a "consultancy" service for around £90 for 3 months where they sent out a newsletter and circulated real leads that you could write to and pitch for

I went in with my eyes wide open and was skeptical but thought nothing ventured...

I have to admit it was the best £90 I have spent -

It is a great "reality check" on your current writing and you get direct feedback from "the industry"

Also, seeing the leads gave me a complete understanding of what "the industry" is looking for - although the pitches ranged from UK, US, Asian and Euro artists there was a definite pattern of what the record companies were looking for

This has given me a focus and direction to write to for the new year - and I know I am going in the right direction


Other paid for pitch sites (e.g. TAXI) could be a good option if you have a huge catalogue of suitable songs - although the annual subscription + the cost per song pitched would make this a very expensive option

However, it is a lot cheaper than moving to Nashville, LA, New York and London and making all of the contacts and doing the donkey work to even get your song heard by the right person - so it may actually turn out to be a good option


My recommendation for you would be to join the Guild of International Songwriters & Composers (GISC) as your first step

It is around £58 per year to join, where you get a newsletter and other useful info

But by far the most useful benefit of being a member is the song assessment service, which rates your songs across a number of criteria

This is useful, INDEPENDENT, feedback on the commercial viability of your songs

PM me if you want any further info or want to see some of the leads or one of my feedback sheets from the GISC

[S.T.C]

Another approach worth trying,and it`s something iv`e done....is, find artists in their unknown stage..get to know them a bit or just come out and ask them if their interested in songs/ideas..if they are and feel your of value...as they grow ,so are  the chances you will..it`somewhat of a long shot...but worth a try...the credit from them will be worth something.


In fact i will give it another go, been 3 yrs since i last did it.

[DonMar]

DJon, good comments from songsthatcry and Boydie. Actually, TAXI is a very good option. Yes, the initial fee to join is high ($299, I think, though after that it drops to $199), but the song submission fee is only $5. And the project descriptions state exactly what people are looking for. I've recently had two 'forwards' for a movie (featuring heavy metal  ), and that was quite a thrill. The TAXI bar is high. (TAXI isn't actually a pay-for-pitch site - it goes way beyond that, offering podcasts, tutorials, videos, with professional songwriters, and so on.) Many of the pitches result in professional reviewers commenting on the song, stating what worked and what didn't. TAXI also offers a guaranteed 100% refund if anyone isn't satisfied with their membership after one year.

There's also a good Peer to Peer forum where people give one another feedback on their songs/lyrics. This is an excellent opportunity to get input from people who are working equally hard to have their music licensed. They know what the standards are. The main benefit, however, is the annual TAXI Rally weekend, which is free to members. People rave about it, and about the contacts they make there.

Boydie, I'm a member of the Guild. I wish though they had an online presence so that one could submit songs/lyrics electronically. Having to do everything by snail mail is kind of dark ages, especially when looking for a collaborator. I admit, I've made no use at all of the services offered.
I will look into them again, though, when I get back from Germany in a week or two.

Donna

[Boydie]

Hey Donna

I completely agree with your comments regarding TAXI - I see it being useful a little further down the road for me, when I have 10 or so songs that I think have a chance of getting picked up - at the moment I think I may have 1 or 2, but I am working on that!

I did learn a lot from my work with a publisher

Rule #1 is to only pitch your songs to very specific leads

The days of sending in a demo to a publisher / record company and hoping they will find the most suitable artists are also long gone

You really need to pitch (or even write) a specific song for a specific lead

The leads will often include "references" - especially for newer artists eg. "We have a new young male singer looking for tracks like Justin Beiber had a baby with Kylie and Lady Ga Ga" (i really did get a lead like this although I can't remember the artists - I will dig it out if I can find it)

The more specific the greater the chances of success - and the costs are then more "efficient" as you are not pitching the wrong song for the wrong artist

The sooner you lose the mindset of "I have a great song that anybody can record" and "I only write highbrow, complicated songs" (the cork sniffers  ) the more chance of success you will have pitching your songs ( it is obviously different if you are pitching yourself as an artist/songwriter package or pitching to "highbrow" artists - although don't forget they probably write their own songs anyway!!!)

Which is another good point - you could be wasting your time pitching to artists (and especially bands) that write their own songs! - a good trawl of CD sleeves or Google could be time well spent


Back on topic - the other big advantage of the "paid pitches", and TAXI, is that you get a "lead sheet" or "tip sheet"

This tells you exactly which artists are looking for songs and when

Eg -In my fantasy world I would love to pitch my track "Edge Of Never" to Robbie - but he has just released an album so wont be looking for songs for the next one yet

Timing is therfore also key to increasing your chances - and a lead sheet will help you with this as well

@ Donna

The Guild does now accept songs for review electronically via email with an attached lyric sheet and mp3 of the song

The feedback is nowhere near as comprehensive as TAXI - however it is a useful "checksheet" for a reality check and the song is listened to by a publisher / record company so you never know...

The only issue I have found with GISC is that it does appear a little archaic - the website looks like something from the 90s and the newsletter is not very "professional" looking

I did write to them pointing out that their content was fantastic but everything should be more "sexy" to attract more members - a couple of hundred quid on a more sexy website would definitely increase the membership IMHO

However, don't be put off as the info is awesome

[S.T.C]

The bottom line is if your material is good enough.it stands a chance...write and perform a song thats of the quality of a major star...it will be noticed..it`s got to be.

But if you haven`t got a great song..then welcome to the world of the 1000`s of good average songs out there..mostly unused.

So what i`m saying,is look to yourself...thats where the answer lies...

My thoughts anyway/

[Paul]

This is an interesting thread.  I've got to say that I'm saddened that so many online companies ask for payment from artists to present their music for opportunities. This unfortunately seems to be common practice.  

I was a member of taxi several years ago.  At the time, I believed that I was writing fairly decent songs that had a  definite hook.  I was actively playing in a band at the time that had been together for the best part of twenty years.  We had a professional CD recorded and also had an excellent Producer on board with this project. My band 'The Vanity Rules' played Rock music.  I think that taxi is very expensive.  At the time, I was surprised at the lack of opportunities for the Rock music genre. Perhaps it has changed.   Many of the listings were for Country music.  I quickly decided that if I was going to take full advantage, then I would need perhaps 10 songs tailored exactly to match the work of some of the big country stars that were popular at the time.  

I can see that in order to maximise your chances of success, you've got to tailor your songs to match industry listings.  That becomes a problem if you don't like modern pop music.  I'm starting to think very carefully about what I write.  I'll either write something that is meaningful to me - something that I really need to express or I'll listen to  a fairly modern pop song that I  admire, then analyse it to decide what has made it so popular.  I recently did this with Gary Barlow's 'Rule The World' and then went on to write a song that I think is fairly commercial.  My goal is to write about 8-10 songs using this latter method and then decide whether to take the plunge and pay to submit to listings.  

I also think that the Guild of International Songwriters and Composers offers a fantastic service and have been a member for several years.  

I think that songsthatcry cry makes a very valid point when he says that if your material is good enough, then it still stands a chance of being noticed, though sadly, writers are more likely to further their writing career by writing a particular style of song for industry listings that require a submission fee.

I wouldn't completely rule out sending demoes to publishing/sync companies. I would however say do your homework first and find out which companies accept unsolicited material.  I managed to get a foot in the door with a big Sync company a little over a year  ago. The  company went on to ask me me for my entire catalogue of music. I was required to phone the company on a weekly basis to discover whether or not they had successfully synced one of my songs.  I hated calling the company on a weekly basis and felt that there was absolutely no warmth in the conversations that we had.   I therefore decided to stop contacting them.  Some might think that a crazy thing to do but I'm happy that I did so. Manners cost nothing!  The point is, it is possible to get noticed by sending unsolicited demoes!

I enjoy the challenge of writing a commercial song and recognise the skill involved in doing so but I am also reluctant to pay to further my writing career.  that's something that I'll have to get used to if I want to pursue my own musical goals.  I do of course wish you all good luck in trying to get your songs placed!

[DJonKelly]

  Thanks to everyone for some useful comment, links, and suggestions.
I am still taking the view that this is a hobby that may pay off if I'm good enough and lucky enough and tenacious enough .....
I got into songwriting after the demise of my last band and moving to a Greek island with little opportunity to form another. That said I hooked up with another expat who plays and writes and is an ex performer so there's something to work with.
I'll certainly look at the "guild" and others.
Good luck to everyone.

[S.T.C]

It really all depends what your goals are.....a piece of music being used in an advert? or maybe writing a song/or lyrics that are used by a band/solo singer .....maybe just once or twice...or getting picked up by a song writing team or whatever.
If your a singer songwriter or in a band... getting fame and fortune through performance/radio/album..a recording contract...

Myself, looking into the crystal ball .....i`ve got a hope of getting something recorded by a lady i`ve mentioned on here....she said she would as a reward for my hard work...i hope as an album track but if not ,something she could use for live performance..then i think i will try to contact others of her ilk..harmed with something to show some sort of credibility...

Like i said earlier..you can contact artists directly and offer your song writing skills..you will get a mixture of no replies,thanks but we write our own,i would, but it`s in my contract that i write my own stuff....or what have you got !

Good hunting.

[Boydie]

The leads will often include "references" - especially for newer artists eg. "We have a new young male singer looking for tracks like Justin Beiber had a baby with Kylie and Lady Ga Ga" (i really did get a lead like this although I can't remember the artists - I will dig it out if I can find it)

Found it!

Here is an extract from an actual lead for an international artist that I received a little while ago:

"She said for what she wants, if Michael Jackson and Madonna/Britney had a baby, that's what she wants!"

I think this is a cracking description!