[James Nighthawk]

Here is a discussion point for you all

There seems to be a bit of a split on the review wall at the moment which is making me feel disinclined to review a lot of the posts here. I used to try and review everyone, but I now find myself selecting by username, checking their recent posting history before bothering. This upsets me, and I am the one doing it!!


There seems to be 2 types of member at the moment:

(1) The type that posts their own song, and then spends time reviewing half a dozen (or more) other artist's songs each week, keeping the board moving nicely, boosting posts for everyone. They will then respond to their own post, but, because they review others regularly, it is pushed down a few notches quickly often by themselves.

(2) The type that posts their own song, then either does not review anyone else, or simply drops a few cursory lines on couple of songs. They then respond on their own thread multiple times, at length. Boosting their own song, and giving little back of any actual use.


I am not having a moan, btw. I am not complaining, as I can get round the system with a couple of mouse clicks. But, what I don't want to happen is a divide between members that are regular, reviewing each other, and ignoring the passing people. This will make the place "cliquey" and unwelcoming. I try to avoid doing that, so long as these less regular lads/ladettes do play fair when they do drop along.

Just a small handful of reviews during the time their post is active surely isn't too much to ask? This place only works by sharing, it is a community!

I know that some others on here have been riled by the "Look at my song!!" brigade. I just wonder if there is any way to balance things a little better?

Thoughts anyone?

PS, I understand the irony that mostly regulars will be reading this! LOL

PPS, An early, Happy new Year to you all. Let's all make 2013 a special year for wonderful music!!!

JNx

[Boydie]

An interesting discussion point

Off the top of my head here are some thoughts...

I think newbies to the forum probably see the "old guard" regulars as a kind of review panel

I completely understand this as it can be intimidating sharing your songs, often for the first time, and be expected to review/critique other people

Perhaps each new member should get 2 "freebies" before they are expected to post reviews on other people's songs

Another approach could be to make new members go through a form of "induction" before being allowed to post

Eg mentors from a "panel" of existing members converse with the new member (via email or a separate forum) to "teach" / coach them how to review a song properly and take them through the posting guidelines

Once they have gone through this "bootcamp" they will know what is expexted of them and will then be allowed to post their own stuff

This is probably overkill for this forum BUT a gaming "clan" I used to play with had a very similar system and it worked really well - everyone was welcome but you had to jump through some hoops before becoming a full member

This separated the "wheat from the chaff" and ensured the whole membership was committed - ie you couldn't just turn up and join


I would also like to know if there is an easy way to see how many songs a member has posted against the number of reviews they have given - this would be an interesting stat to guage participation in the community

[DJonKelly]

Hi and Happy new year.
May I add a third group, those that review songs but don't post any?
I actually don't know if that happens as I've only been a member a short while, but I could see how there may be some with "Cowell" syndrome that feel they are a good and qualified judge.
For myself, I have listened to a few song posts and have been surprised by the high quality of most which show up the shortcomings of my own efforts and therefore don't feel able to comment in any meaningfull way until I have posted my own.

Dino

[Paul]

Hi James,

This issue has been discussed many times.  I don't really think that we'll find a solution that everyone is happy with.  I too think that there is a divide.  Personally I tend to review when I'm posting material and I think that's fair, though I sometimes wonder if there's resentment that I don't spend more time on the forum.  Whatever your approach, there's always someone who won't be happy with the number of forum contributions that a member makes and will interpret their motives for reviewing or for that matter, their  style of reviewing. Time spent on the forum is related to personal commitments that we all have.  It's difficult to please everyone. I try not to be too critical of those who contribute only a little and simply accept that some will be more active than others and have their own reasons for their level of involvement.  

I hope that everyone enjoys the new year's eve celebrations and has a fantastic new year!  

[S.T.C]

All forums are an extension of the play ground ,don`t you know.

[tina m]

its the same old problem isnt it ..the more involved you get the more attached you get & the more you hold something dear & the more protective you get
i either get cross with people who i think abuse this forum & tell them of or i get cross & i do what im doing at the moment which is get disilusuioned & think about starting somewhere else
i want a home & you cant have a home with no doors where strangers can just wander in & do what they like!
before i came here i was on a very small forum started by friends & no one else ever joined & evryone knew how to behave & new each other but it was just to small & quiet for me & i wanted more attenton & more going on
i need something in the middle
 

[James Nighthawk]

Good point re a middle ground Tina. The Bhuddists would be proud

And good points Paul. It is ALL about time.

When I review a song I listen all the way through, sometimes twice, and then try to compose a decent review. I spend 3-15 minutes per review. Why should I bother spending my time on people that don't give any of theirs?!

Paul, you review more than you post and always tend to post a review that is considered. You are very much in the "good boy" camp  In fact there are loads of people that are!!

For the moment I will just continue as I do...reviewing those that share and skipping over those that don't make any effort. Any newbies get a free pass of course. By reviewing them I would hope they'd be encouraged to share with others

A ratio of 3:1 is all I would ask... for every song you post, review at least 3 others. 15 minutes time to get a few reviews of your own; too much to expect?

But as has been mentioned: By enforcing a minimum ratio, people will just spam heartless "sounds ace!" reviews to meet the criteria. That is no better!

I think this place works fairly well as is. I notice the selfish ones tend to disappear soon enough, once they realise they get little to no reviews.

December might be a funny month, people with extra free time

Here's to a caring, sharing January 

[habiTat]

I think you can tell those who 'get' it, and those who don't, quite quickly. I do find myself looking at the number of posts/recent review posts of names I don't recognise. As for those one liner 'nice song' reviews, from those who then proceed to waffle endlessly in reply to their own song reviews, I can't help but think they didn't even bother to finish listening to my song, so I tend to avoid reviewing them. Maybe Little Bill should gently nudge that type of member as well as the frequent multi song people. He's a force for good and people do seem to listen.. or leave

[S.T.C]

Think your flogging a dead horse, it`s going to be an eternal problem...unless some draconian rules are imposed....and who wants that,
I think things are ok at the moment...newbies are made clear on the posting rule.......ignore those that you think infringe your sense of right and wrong etiquette....for my part i listen to pretty much everything ..even from the occasional sojourner.

[James Nighthawk]

@hab yup I do a similar thing, and it generally seems the done thing.

@songs you are right, there is no perfect answer, but the occasional round table on the system can't help, you never know when new ideas could come from a brainstorm

For instance the welcome email seems to have helped as has Little Bill. All things that appeared after the last round of discussion.

Plus having an active discuss might spur the naughty boys and girls. Who knows 

[Dutchbeat]

Hey Guys, just to be sure for myself...in these discussions there is always something about people giving only short remarks or comments...you know like just saying: i enjoyed listening to this song....or .....i think you have a great voice etd

etc. I do that a lot, and i want to continue to do that if that is ok

if i listen to somebody's song and i like it, or i like something particular about it i just like to be able to express that as a compliment to a fellow songwriter, and just that without giving tips for improvement

i don't think this topic is about that issue, but sometimes these short compliment posts are made to look like "cheap"" in discussions like this, as they are meant to just increase posts before putting a song of yourself up??

i think listening to a song and saying that you like it, can be constructive and encouraging for the one who put the music on display.

What i trying to say is, let us not make it too difficult to send a reply, i mean that you have to have very good advice or know where the other should go. Some know more about music and recording, some write (reviews) more easily than others etc. I come here mainly to listen to music of others and give my (rather non-educated) opinion, so often i just have to rely on whether i like a song or certain aspects of a song. And i come here for collaborations (don't underestimate how useful this forum is for many to connect with other songwriters), and i do like to hear what other people think of my own attempts once in a while. But I don't hink there should be to a short of high treshold for reviewing, but of course the people that do get into detail and give very concrete tips are extremely helpful for others. But just giving an opinion in terms of liking or not liking a piece is ok too in my opinion (and yes, i know what the forum guidlines say   , this is just my opinion

before you know it we are reviewing the quality of the reviews and not the songs itself  

but clearly this forum is needs people to participate, just putting one's own song up for review and not paying any attention to other people's music is not helping this forum at all

[James Nighthawk]

aww Dutchy, I doubt many, if any, have a problem with you, I certainly don't! 

Its becomes clear when someone posts short reviews that are actually from the right place. If they like the song, and that's all they have to say, then awesome.... The issue is linked with those that just throw off a couple of half-assed "cool song bro" posts after what is likely a cursory listen, just so it looks better on their profile history. You, and others, clearly listen and participate. That is the difference.

If all you there is to say is "loved the song" or "great vibes" then go for it! Particularly in cases like yours where you do write more on plenty of occasions.

Hell, sometimes a short review is all a good song needs. Or a very bad one 

It's participation that matters.

And let's be clear here.... this forum is on the whole MILES ahead of others that involve personal content, and let's keep it so 

[theLostLad]

Good points James, and I do know where you're coming from. From my own point of view as a new member (and I am echoing what Dutchbeat has already said), I'm aware of the the posting guidelines, but I'm fairly inexperienced in terms of songwriting, and certainly recording, so usually a short review is all I genuinely have to offer. To counter that I'm not a very prolific songwriter so eventually (I have only been here for around a month and have largely been offline over Christmas) my short reviews will far outweigh my own postings! I have been guilty of responding to my own posts, but this was more out of politeness to say thanks for reviewing. I'm sure there is a balance to be struck here. I've not had the 'pleasure' of a comment from Little Bill yet so presumably I'm adhering to the guidelines, but if not I'd certainly appreciate a PM to that effect. This is a very supportive and friendly forum and I'd like to contribute to that rather than detract from it. The other side is that there are some really great songs on here which I take great pleasure in listening to, and I'm sure even the more experienced songwriters appreciate some sort of feedback, however succinct, as a barometer of how their song would be received generally?

As a possible solution, could you have a 'newbies' review section (sub forum) where posts are deleted after a week, or are only allowed a handful of replies, sort of like a Review Forum-lite? Then if users have participated as expected in reviewing other folks' songs they can graduate to the Review forum-proper?  I also don't see any problem with enforcing a minimum quota, but you also need to look at the quality of the reviews to discount the 'cool song bro' comments, although maybe this is extra overhead for the mods? Is there a facility on the forum to flag replies as inappropriate so that mods can be alerted to the kind of behaviour you are talking about? As a newbie myself, I wouldnt have objected to some sort of enforced minimum quota before being allowed to post a song for review.

Just my two penneth. Happy New Year to all!

[flossie]

 
I'm really fed up with this sort of discussion.  When I first came to this forum, I posted a song for review straight away didn't introduce myself I don't whether there were rules but noone berated me for it. 

Now we have rules and guidelines and other stuff and it just pisses me off. As I said before, people who appreciate the forum hang around and get involved those that don't, and only post to get a review of their song, mainly disappear and after all it's up to members if they want to comment on these members' songs.  I just don't see the problem.

We have enough rules in our 'normal' lives. We all have different commitments too. 

I wanted to see what used to happen and looked back to June 2011 when I first joined.  I just posted a song for a review and I got a response from Kaf (where is Kaf by the way?!) Dutchbeat, Paul, Ramshackles and also cheff daniel.  No one had a go at me for just posting and not reviewing etc.  The next day shock horror I posted another song!!! However I noticed that on the third day I got the hang of it and began reviewing - awkwardly (I still find it difficult). 

I know everyone is different but the point is I immediately felt welcome. I also then found the courage to critique others' work. 

There is no way that newcomers would feel welcome at this forum I think, the way it currently is.

Just my twopenneth, which I am sure won't be popular but there you go 

[James Nighthawk]

Oddly Flossie, I agree with a lot of your points 

Newbies should be giving extra reign to learn by doing. And people are still joining and being welcomed this way.

But as you say, when you joined this was a smaller place, so there was no need to police at all. People had the time to review most of what was posted. With a growing board, a little more fairness is needed so songs don't just cycle out of play.

But, I don't agree with over policing, as this should still be a chilled place, and a welcoming one. 

But (again!) what this place mustn't turn into is a "Check out my song" forum...lots of thread with no cross posting. As that WILL kill the place. I certainly would be less inclined to log in to such a board

As you say:

As I said before, people who appreciate the forum hang around and get involved those that don't, and only post to get a review of their song, mainly disappear and after all it's up to members if they want to comment on these members' songs.  I just don't see the problem.

This is largely the case. I think December was/is a funny month. The other day when I started this thread I should have taken that into account more