[habiTat]

Before I joined this forum I had a big debate with a drummer friend of mine, he was helping me with feedback etc, much the same as what we do on here. He kindly offered to make me a video for my first proper song and advised that I re-record it to a click track, so it was all in time. I was against it at first as I found it hard to work with. I have since started working with a basic looped rhythm tap for my better recordings. However, during the debate I decided to send a direct tweet to Robin Pecknold of Fleet Foxes asking what he thought. It was a stab in the dark but worth it. He replied!!

Ok it was only a two word reply but I was happy.

His answer to whether he used them for his recordings was.....  "no click"

What do you do? is it ok to not use one? or do you need to be a really good musician to get away with it?


edit*  oops, this might be better in the recordings section 

[tone]

It depends on what you want to achieve, and what kind of music you're making.

If you're making music that involves any kind of sequenced parts, then I'd say a click is a must.

If your sense of timing isn't that hot, then a click is advised.

But if you're making a more acoustic recording and you have a good sense of timing, I recommend going sans click. You'll get a more human, organic feel and might find it easier to play with some feeling.

[habiTat]

But if you're making a more acoustic recording and you have a good sense of timing, I recommend going sans click. You'll get a more human, organic feel and might find it easier to play with some feeling.

Thanks Tone, that's kind of the answer I wanted to hear  I find it drags all the fun out of recording when I'm robotically strumming along to a mechanical click machine. I much prefer the songs I've done where I've just pressed record and played it, then tried to fit stuff around it afterwards. It always feels like it's a bit of a fudge though but it seems to retain it's feeling so I guess it's ok.

[Kafla]

Yeah tones tight habitat - I use it as I produce 90% of my music in Logic - you need to be precise

But you do lose some of the feel 

Just guitar and vocals I wouldn't 

[tone]

Thanks Tone, that's kind of the answer I wanted to hear   I find it drags all the fun out of recording when I'm robotically strumming along to a mechanical click machine. I much prefer the songs I've done where I've just pressed record and played it, then tried to fit stuff around it afterwards. It always feels like it's a bit of a fudge though but it seems to retain it's feeling so I guess it's ok.

I know exactly where you're coming from, but it's also worth remembering this: if you're playing in a band with a tight rhythm section, then it's like playing to a click. If your song needs a drum track, I'd say go with a click unless you already have a drum track recorded, in which case play to that.

Another thing to consider - if you find playing to a click a bit soul-less, dial up a drum groove and play along to that instead. You'll get better feel and movement.

[The Corsair]

See at present me and a friend are working on a song where we literally click our fingers, so I guess we've found a compromise

[Ramshackles]

Before I joined this forum I had a big debate with a drummer friend of mine, he was helping me with feedback etc, much the same as what we do on here. He kindly offered to make me a video for my first proper song and advised that I re-record it to a click track, so it was all in time. I was against it at first as I found it hard to work with. I have since started working with a basic looped rhythm tap for my better recordings. However, during the debate I decided to send a direct tweet to Robin Pecknold of Fleet Foxes asking what he thought. It was a stab in the dark but worth it. He replied!!

Ok it was only a two word reply but I was happy.

His answer to whether he used them for his recordings was.....  "no click"

What do you do? is it ok to not use one? or do you need to be a really good musician to get away with it?


edit*  oops, this might be better in the recordings section 

actually, for fleet foxes first album, they recorded to a click at home.
For the second album they went and they recorded the drums first (with robin playing along as aguide) and 'the drums were so good there was no need for a click...'

..There was an article on them in soundonsound some time ago.

I have and have not used a click. I use it more often than most. But I spend a fair amount of time editing the click track to speed up & down in order to get some natural movement in the song. Our songs often have tempo changes anyway..

Recording to a click is by no means a 'cheat' or a modern thing. Listen to 'blackbird' by beatles and you can hear the metronome ticking away in the background...

[James Nighthawk]

I know exactly where you're coming from, but it's also worth remembering this: if you're playing in a band with a tight rhythm section, then it's like playing to a click. If your song needs a drum track, I'd say go with a click unless you already have a drum track recorded, in which case play to that.

Another thing to consider - if you find playing to a click a bit soul-less, dial up a drum groove and play along to that instead. You'll get better feel and movement.

Two great points Tone

A good drummer should, for most genres, be metronomic. Their primary job is keeping time. One of my pet peeves at the studio is a drummer who follows the band. NO! The drummer leads. If the guitars falls behind the beat, the guitarist should realise and catch up. Assuming, of course, that the drummer has good timing.

And great point about programming a groove as click track.

I often provide drummers with a pattern as such:

-side stick on 1 2 3 4
-soft ride on 1 to signify bar start
-for some songs a hihat on every beat and off beat to push it along - esp usueful on slower songs

A gentle groove encourages the drummer to get into the head space to groove as well!

"Quantisation" to sound more human with programmed drums doesn't (well shouldn't!) throw off the timing. It simply moves a few hits subtle inside of the beat, to add a humanity. This is fine. But unintended rallentandos and tempo changes are just ropey playing.

Aside from the world of drums:

If you KNOW that your track is going to remain stripped down, and you want a loose feel, go clickless. I did this on a track recently.

But, often I use a click just in case I decide to build a track up later. A click shouldn't kill the feel. It is however a new thing to get used to for some people. I have been amazed at how bad some otherwise stunning musicians have been in my studio when I turn the click track on. They can play wonderful complex phrases, yet ask them to do it in perfect timing and they throw the instrument down and growl!

I blame running before they can walk syndrome. Same reason a lot of guitarists can fretboard wank the scales but can't do an effective "down down down-up down-up" strum pattern, with the automated arm one should acquire during musical juvenilia. They just skipped that part and ran ahead!

Musings over

[mihkay]

Depends. 
I've posted on this before.
If by click track you mean, "Ding tick tick tick Ding Tick Tick Tick"....then NO NEVER BAD BAD VERY BAD! 

Presently I work alone and I can't play piano, trumpet , flute etc. But I use all these things through midi in addition to using a programmed drum kit... but I write mostly on guitar, so I do need to use a sync track for me to play my guitar or sing to.

But my click track starts out (similar to James) as a reasonably thought out drum pattern. I tend to have a feel for the rhythm and accent for the song before I start programming.  I'll play along to that pattern, work out where it's not right, go back amend it and repeat. This loop may happen  half a dozen times before I get the first guitar part down. And after that the bass, piano or vocal part may point out a flaw and I'll go back (though not always) and alter that bit and start again.

You now see why it takes me an age to do a track and most of my stuff never gets past the rough demo stage.
FOR RECORDING YOU CANNOT BEAT A REHEARSED BAND PLAYING TOGETHER. 

[Boydie]

For me it is pretty much everything MIHKAY said 

[Michael]

Lacking a real drummer (and the means to record drums in audio  ), I usually go for the drum-track approach instead of a click track.

However, I've recently started experimenting with varying tempo in one song, and during the parts where the tempo rises or falls I found it immensely helpful to have a click track in addition to the usual drums.
In this case without the click, I just can't seem to be able to hold the tempo, or rather keeo up with it...

[habiTat]

Good response guys, it's interesting how many ways there are to skin a cat

For my Pawprint song I've taken the organic approach. I've recorded the basic song, voice and guitar (just fresh with no clicks or beats to help me), then built on it with other guitar layers, vocal harmonies, and basic percussion. I've found that the more I work with it, the more I learn it and I think it's actually working. It has the benefit of retaining a very 'live' feel.

Only time (and review) will tell if it has been a success though...

hab..