[Stroller2010]

Just wondering what people thought about this. I get the impression lately that you don't get anywhere without a decent qualification in music or writing, and that really annoys me. It's not that I wouldn't put the work in, but I don't think your talent should be determined by a single letter. And the idea of A Level English makes my skin crawl anyway. I compare it to judging people on which town they are from, or even what race or religion.

[James Nighthawk]

There are plenty of people that are very successful in life without qualifications. Others do have them and are very unsuccessful. But then there are those that work hard, gets their degree and then achieve big things....

In many ways a qualification is proof not only of talent and skill in one's chosen field, but also that the person has a determination and willingness to apply to a work ethic and achieve from this.

This is why many employers care less than you may think about the field a person chooses for their degree. Obviously, some jobs require skill sets from their degree - I would hope my doctor didn't graduate in Ancient History!


Some people are academic. Some aren't. Academic people shouldn't look down on those without qualifications. Likewise, reverse snobbery - those without degrees dismissing the time, effort and skill needed to pass a degree - is equally wrong.

... I don't think your talent should be determined by a single letter. And the idea of A Level English makes my skin crawl anyway. I compare it to judging people on which town they are from, or even what race or religion.

Two issues with this.

The "letter" is an official evaluation of a person's achievement. There is a hint of "reverse snobbery" here.

A Level English may make your skin crawl, but please don't be dismissive of something just because it isn't for you.

And no, it is not the same to equate judging a well educated person vs a lesser educated one with racial prejudice. This point comes across as very badly thought out.

Example: I would hope my local surgery would employ a well qualified doctor over one who is under qualified to serve patients. I would hope the colour of said Doctor's skin would NOT be a factor.


To make a point to the field of music/writing:
 
I believe, from personal experience, that the SKILLS garnered from my Music Tech degree have served me immeasurably. I would have struggled to learn them elsewhere in a condensed 3 year period.

I have only a GCSE in English. But my writing skills are (If I do say so myself) not too shabby whatsoever.

Has anyone ever asked to see my degree? No. I don't even have it hanging in my control room anymore...a White Board comes in more useful in its place

My path worked for me. I suppose that is all I can say.

[The Corsair]

I have my masters in lyricology, I thought you guys all did too...

[James Nighthawk]

I have my masters in lyricology, I thought you guys all did too...

I stopped after my BA.... my biggest regret in life 

[habiTat]

I can smell a blog James

I think, to a certain extent songwriting is a gift/talent. It sounds like a cop out but could you really just grab someone off the street and reach them to be a good songwriter? And in any case, what defines good? Some people, like the unqualified Lennons and Mccartneys just 'have' it, and others don't.

[James Nighthawk]

Some people, like the unqualified Lennons and Mccartneys just 'have' it, and others don't.

Lennon McCartney spent years honing skills. Learning new chords and structures. Practising harmonies. Writing obsessively, not to mention the oneupmanship the had pushing them forward

They learnt much and worked hard. Regardless of background

[habiTat]

I agree, talent with hard work and all the other stuff ie rivalries etc. my point is that there needs to be a spark/gift/talent of some sort to start with. I know some people who just couldn't put a song together, they don't have the tools for it. They may be good at other things though so I'm not knocking them. Even if that 'gift' is a bit of self belief and confidence, it can drive would be songwriters on to greater things.

[HillbillyJim]

I tend to think talent is over-rated, but maybe I'm just naive. In the immortal words of the comedian Simon Munnery, in completely the wrong context, "Is life so unfair that we need a lottery and a justice system? Oh yes, we punish the guilty and reward randomly chosen people."

I was reading a book called 'Revolution in the Head', about the music of The Beatles, and it quotes this figure that Lennon/McCartney may have written as many as 200 songs before they wrote anything that got onto "Please Please Me". This shouldn't be surprising! If anything, I might say that the number could have been even bigger - but maybe in the context of the God-knows-how-many-hour shifts gigging every night in Hamburg you can get some idea (or I like to think I can  ) of how much work it takes to get to a record like "Please Please Me" - which includes, by my reckoning, about 15 minutes of original music. And then what, ~200 more songs (and how many more discarded?) and endless, endless hours in the studio to get to the medley on the flip side of Abbey Road.

Likewise, there's an interview somewhere with Noel Gallagher, where says that he wrote at least 75 songs before coming up with anything fit for public consumption which never left his bedroom - even on the dodgy later albums - and in another he claims to still write about 60 songs a year.

There was interview recently in the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/aug/16/the-vaccines-young-dumb-primitive with the Vaccines - the sodding Vaccines - in which one of the fellas says that he wrote 160 (!) songs for their recent record. It's only a year since the last one came out, and it's not even particularly good (although it does have moments).

Which is all to say, I don't think you could take just anybody off the street - they obviously have to love music. And not everyone gets to be The Beatles. But I'm pretty sure anyone with enough determination and the taste for it can be The Vaccines, musically if not commercially. Make of that what you like  

[habiTat]

If it is a numbers game I guess there is hope for us all. Like throwing mud at the wall, throw enough and some will stick.. If i write 200 songs, somewhere in there i'll stumble across a gem. Didnt someone once say that if you put enough monkeys in a room with typewriters, they will eventually write a masterpiece? 

I'm not being flippant but this debate has definitely been around for a while. Is the concept of 'talent' just something dreamed up (to describe those who have achieved great things) by people who aren't prepared to work as hard as the hard working 'talented' successes?

Interesting stuff.... 

[HillbillyJim]

It's not to dismiss talent entirely - some people really are genetically better suited to certain things: there's a reason all the best runners at the Olympics were African or of African descent. At the same time, it's easy to imagine how people might evolve to be more athletic living in a particularly dangerous area - it's harder to imagine the conditions where people evolve, in a systematic way, a talent for writing music in only a certain part of the world. So, the 'genetic spectrum', if you follow my drift, is necessarily a lot narrower than for something like athletics.

Teaching is also important - there is likewise a reason why all the best cyclists are Brits: for various reasons, they just have all the best coaches. (And possibly the best steroids, but we'll just wait and see what happens with this Lance Armstrong stuff!) The Beatles obviously had George Martin, not to mention playing with numerous experienced musicians in Hamburg. Likewise Noel Gallagher befriended a lot of talented musicians while working as a roadie for the Inspiral Carpets. In particular, a band called the Real People who got Oasis in the studio for the first time to record some demos, and a guy called Mark Coyle who produced the first record. At the same time, with the wide range of information essentially to be found for free on the internet, and the ever increasing availability of obscure books with websites like Amazon, even this is becoming less and less important.

So I do like to think there is hope for all

[Ramshackles]

Not read through the replies yet, so I may add more later...but I just wanted to stick in that if you look through the bios of favourite bands, you probably won't see much by the way of music qualifications.

I'll do quick look through my collection:

Beatles
Beach Boys
Decemberists
Fleet Foxes
Fleetwood Mac
Fairport Convention

all no formal music quals

[habiTat]

Not read through the replies yet, so I may add more later...but I just wanted to stick in that if you look through the bios of favourite bands, you probably won't see much by the way of music qualifications.

I'll do quick look through my collection:

Beatles
Beach Boys
Decemberists
Fleet Foxes
Fleetwood Mac
Fairport Convention

all no formal music quals

Oi have you nicked my record collection!

Good taste Mr Shackles

[Ramshackles]

Not read through the replies yet, so I may add more later...but I just wanted to stick in that if you look through the bios of favourite bands, you probably won't see much by the way of music qualifications.

I'll do quick look through my collection:

Beatles
Beach Boys
Decemberists
Fleet Foxes
Fleetwood Mac
Fairport Convention

all no formal music quals

Oi have you nicked my record collection!

Good taste Mr Shackles

Only b to F

Forgot Bon Iver, Bright Eyes and Ed Harcourt...again no qualifications

[Boydie]

I don't think a "qualification" is required but I do think some form of "learning" is required  - especially if you want to write for a specific purpose

E.g to write commercial, hit, songs you would be best to learn the established formats, arrangements, chord sequences, melodies, scales, production tricks, etc, etc.