[Ramshackles]

Good discussion..have only read half the replies so far ..my thoughts:

- We've mentioned before (a long time ago I think) that the reason people may concentrate on production more is it is easier than talking about the song, as often in that regard you just either feel 'I like it', or 'I don't like it'.

-I think it just as important for the poster to remember that we are not professional reviewers as it is for us reviewers to remember that most people don't have access to pro recording facilities.

Songs are generally posted with little explanation or a little bio of how the song came about.
IMO, it would be much more helpful to the reviewer to add as much detail as you can on your thoughts on the song. Which bits you are unsure about, which bits you think are great, what you are trying to achieve, the genre you are writing in, what the song is supposed to convey?

Giving the reviewer some things to focus on would really help get a better review, especially when the song is not the reviewers cup of tea

[Kafla]

Hee hee , I feel like a dog with a bone here

It all about the song - first and last

I would rather develop my songwriting in terms of learning new chord progression, melodies and great words/imagery for my lyrics and continue to be workmanlike like in my production.

If I could take one item to a desert island it would be my guitar not my Mac.

I hear all these little mix tweaks etc and I cant hear the difference - its the same song But its beginning to look like this is just me - the majority seem have the other view from the replies here.

But it wouldn't do if we were all the same and the way others approach the beast fascinates me

[Paul]

There are a lot of people sitting on the fence here.  This is a songwriting forum, not a producers forum.  There are many who will disagree with  my views and that's  ok.  I just wanted to reiterate  that song craft and production  are in my opinion very different!

I couldn't agree more with your thoughts about this subject Andy.  I'd also be taking my acoustic with me on to that desert island and not my Mac!

I'd be interested to read opinions on songwriting credits and production.  This is linked to the current debate as reviews about production and songwriting suggest that the two are intrinsically linked.  I see the two quite separately providing the writer has written the lyrics, melody and provided the framework of chords for the arrangement.   Anyway, If a producer takes a song written by someone else and develops the production, perhaps even changing a chord that he/she believes better supports the melody of a song does the producer deserve to be acknowledged as a co-writer?  I've produced several tracks for other people and I don't believe that my extensive input warrants a writer's credit.  Furthermore, I wouldn't dream of asking for this acknowledgment, yet there are some who would expect to be included as a co writer.  Any thoughts on this? Perhaps it will open up a whole new can of worms!

[Ramshackles]

Hee hee , I feel like a dog with a bone here

It all about the song - first and last

I would rather develop my songwriting in terms of learning new chord progression, melodies and great words/imagery for my lyrics and continue to be workmanlike like in my production.

If I could take one item to a desert island it would be my guitar not my Mac.

I hear all these little mix tweaks etc and I cant hear the difference - its the same song But its beginning to look like this is just me - the majority seem have the other view from the replies here.

But it wouldn't do if we were all the same and the way others approach the beast fascinates me

No, I agree that the focus is on the song. Some aspects of production - such as arrangement are part of the songwriting IMO.
But my main point is that it is very hard to review a song when people say 'Here is a song, what do you think'. Mikhay (?) I think, pointed that out earlier.
It's easiest to give a review when the poster gives us their thoughts and gives us things to think about.
We aren't pro reviewers. If I'm given a list of things to address in my review, Im going to do a much more informative review. Otherwise it's going to be more along the lines of 'it's good, continue', or 'Nah, I dont really like it..'....

[Kafla]

Officially melody and lyric are the song - 100% , not even chords believe it or not - doesnt matter if you change them all - or even write them from scratch.

Of course everything can be negotiated and most writers would be fair but if it went to court then melody
and lyric is all that matters

This has been tested in court many times , famously around the whiter shade of pale song were initially the organ player who wrote and played the phenomenal organ intro was awarded 40% of the credit. This was later over turned and a precedence was set that only melody and lyric matter.

I think production / mixing is a bit like decorating/furnishing your house - it might bring out the best features and can be adapted to everyones taste but the house is the house - you need to love it to begin with.

Again speaking for myself I do not find the detailed production critique helpful in any way to my songwriting and they detract from the point of this site - the songwriting.

If I wanted production tips I would post my song in the recording section and ask - how can I improve this mix etc

I totally agree that a bio before you post the song , perhaps briefly what you are looking to achieve with the song so others can assess the song around whether or not you achieved these goals.

And of course take the review in good spirit - I am all for challenging the reviewers stance and reinforcing yourself where necessary but there are a few on here that defend their music period as if they just want people to listen and praise them - thats not what this site is about. I feel that if more than 2 people comment on an negative aspect of my writing then I need to do something about it.

Andy laurence llewelyn bowen Kafla

[James Nighthawk]

Andy laurence llewelyn bowen Kafla

I shall, henceforth, visualise you as wild of hair and poofy of sleeve.

[Kafla]

You kinky bassa  

I hope your not having a little tug just now

[James Nighthawk]

You kinky bassa  

I hope your not having a little tug just now

errrrrrrrrrm

No

[Kafla]

Stop lying Nighthawk

I know you love all that ye olde medieval big hair and poofy sleeve

ha ha

[Paul]

I 'd love to see a section on the forum for sharing songs which is separate from reviews.   Not everyone is looking for a review, they simply want an outlet for their  music after  all the time that they've spent bringing their songs to life.  If the listener wants to comment, they might be inspired to send a personal message or not.  

Mihkay  made a great point in an earlier post, indicating that he often doesn't feel qualified to comment on a song that someone has devoted great care and attention to writing.  I feel exactly the same. I prefer to stay clear of strong criticism though I will be critical of a person's work if someone is often critical of other people's work.   I believe we should all be very careful about how we review, trying  to look for the positives and politely suggest ways that a track might be improved upon if we feel that we have good ideas that might add value.

[Boydie]

It all depends on the "intention" of a song IMHO

If someone wants to send it to a publisher, A&R person etc. then the fact remains that to stand a chance of being "picked up" it needs to sound like a hit at the demo stage - which means a top notch song, top notch performance and top notch production

It really does need to tick all boxes

So when someone posts a song that sounds like a demo then all 3 factors need to be considered IMHO

OR - comments along the lines of "you would need to produce a full demo before submitting etc." would be valid


If, however, someone posts a song they have written "for themselves" then these factors are not so important - but if they have gone to the trouble of recording it with proper mics, multi-track, used some processing etc. I do not see the harm in people giving advice and feedback on how they can make the recording & sound better - which WILL make the song sound better

The same points could be made about performance - a good song performed badly takes some "imagination" from the listener to appreciate how good the song is (Publishers and A&R people do not have the time to use their imagination and may not be able to)

A bad song with a top notch performance and production will inevitably sound better - we have all heard terrible songs in the top 40!!!

A good song with a good performance and production will stand a better chance


I am sure (revole)around wont mind me using his track as an example

Here is his original song posted for review:

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/song-reviews/coasting-from-the-sun-(acoustic-demo)/

Many of the reviews, including my own, suggested a full band production to best "show off" the song

I liked the song so much I re-recorded it and produced it a bit (far from "top notch" but it was generally accepted as an improvement)

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/song-reviews/coasting-from-the-sun-(boydie-demo)/

This is most definitely the same song but I think the production "shows it off" better

It hasn't "improved" the song itself but the drums, bass, guitar and vocals give a different vibe

Does this constitute a co-write? - I don't think so

Does it improve the song - I think so

I personally don't think you can separate songwriting from production as the production can change the feel of the song

Someone else could take the same track and turn it into a deep house club floor filler with the right production - same song but completely different feel

Without both songwriting and production being presented together it is difficult to hear the overall intention of the song

The Radio 1 Live Lounge CDs are full of great examples of songs performed completely differently - same chords and melodies but often the song is transformed with a different performance/production - sometimes for the better and sometimes much worse!!!

I definitely fall on the side of the fence that songwriting, performance and production for "commercial" intentions are intertwined

The song can be written on an acoustic - but the production is essential to show it off in it's best light

Therefore I feel production is valid to be commented on in the forum reviews- unless the OP puts info in saying that they are not interested in production comments of course

I 'd love to see a section on the forum for sharing songs which is separate from reviews.   Not everyone is looking for a review, they simply want an outlet for their  music after  all the time that they've spent bringing their songs to life.  If the listener wants to comment, they might be inspired to send a personal message or not. 

I suggested exactly this back in April but the idea got shot down in flames

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/the-bar/'shake-up'-of-the-reviews-forum/

[James Nighthawk]

Another factor that we should consider. We all want different things from this place.

Personally:

I post finished songs, not work in progress. I am the artsy type that will rarely, if ever, go back and edit a song once I finish it. When I am writing and recording I have a group of musicians and close friends who give me feedback. So it is moulded by other people to some extent during the creation phase.

I don't share the work online till I am happy with it. If it is flawed in the eyes of some, fine. There are no right and wrongs with art, just opinions.

I DO want to hear what people think to influence future writings and help me grow as a writer. I am not after feedback to help me rewrite and/or remix the song in question. But I do want to see what people take to and do not take to in my work so I can write better work going forward. This has happened in the 8-9 months I have been here. And for this I am very grateful to the lovely forumites here

This is very different to others on here, who want exactly what I don't look for; advice to help improve their current song, the one in question

I am not simply sharing or showing off my songs, I get that from friends, fb, twitter etc etc... I want a review and an honest one, and I get that here! The differing views we all have are valid and help us see our art in new light

I do love the quote mentioned yesterday, wonderfully applicable to this site...

"Tread lightly for you tread on my dreams" (Yeats)

Something we should all keep in mind 

[Kafla]

This is from the review guidelines , I have highlighted the relevant section in bold:

Be constructive. This is the most important guideline of all. It's fine to say if you don't like a song, but you must say why. Likewise, posts such as 'Wow, great song' although nice are not helpful. Please give reasons for your opinions on a song. Feedback from other artists will benefit the community greatly.

Review the song! There is a separate section for reviewing recordings.  Please use it

Be patient! If your song has not been reviewed a few hours after you post it, please do not post again asking why.  However, if days go by and your song review thread falls down the list while others have been reviewed, feel free to bump the thread.

[Boydie]

...unless you see production as part of the songwriting process and not just part of the recording   

Off we go again 

Seriously though, I think we will achieve the opposite of what we are trying to achieve if we strictly enforce this type of thing

Is the arrangement part of the song?

Is the performance part of the song?

I hate the idea of listening to a song and feeling there are certain things that spring to mind that I feel I can't mention (and I hate the idea of someone else hearing something in mine that they don't say!)


I like the idea of the original post being much more descriptive about the "intent" of the song - and for the reviews to follow this lead

e.g.

 "this is a song I have finished and I am looking for feedback before I record a full demo"

in this instance the reviews would be squarely focussed on the song and possibly some production and arrangement options/ideas


"I think this song is ready to send to publishers - what do you think"

in this instance everything in the song is fair game - structure, lyric, production, mix, commerciality etc.

"I am about to release this on iTunes - what do you think"

again everything is fair game but perhaps this might attract more specific production points


"here is my new single we have released"

These are the ones I personally don't like so much on the forum - they appear to be looking to share their music rather than receive a contructive review/critique - and I would still like to see these types of reviews in a separate area of the forum


Reviewers should be free to say whatever they think regardless of topic - as I have said before it is up to the reader to decide whether to pay any attention or not

[Kafla]

If production , arrangement , performance all form part of the songwriting Boydie , this statement makes no sense

Review the song! There is a separate section for reviewing recordings.  Please use it

What would be left to review in the recording section ?