[James Nighthawk]

Hee Hee

Didn't read it but like your style 

Ha! Excuse my while I "roll on the floor laughing my arse off"

[andy5544]

I like the way the reviews are now , a healthy  mix of artistic and technical views , I think both are valid. If your not bothered about the techy stuff you don't have to act on it. 

[James Nighthawk]

I like the way the reviews are now , a healthy  mix of artistic and technical views , I think both are valid. If your not bothered about the techy stuff you don't have to act on it. 

Here here!

[mihkay]

The best way to review a song?  

Can open....worms everywhere!  

I do have genuine problems in this area. Now.... if someone asks:-

"Do you think the Vocal harmonies work?" or "Does this Bass-line compliment the rhythm?" then I can give an opinion.  

If I'm asked
"I wrote a song, What do you think of it?" Then I'm stuck. If I don't like it, who am I to critique someone's artistic endeavours. What do I know?  

I'm not a musician, so I can't help as far as arrangement or style is concerned.
I'm not in the music industry, so I can't give hints on making it commercial.
I failed 'O' level English (Maths and Physics were my bag) so poetry and interpreting lyrics are a mystery to me.
All I am is a middle aged bloke who has all his life listened to and enjoyed and played (to some extent), all styles of music.

If I think a song is a re-heated piece of self-indulgent retro adolescent nonsense. So what....the charts have always been filled with similar.  
If I love a song, I've usually no idea why and all I can usually say is banal platitudes.  

I do try to review. There are some very talented people here but I have no idea what is objectively good or bad, only that some things I like and some things I don't. That is why I don't review much, and when I do, it is usually technical comments. It's easy to say, "Ahh, yes, I had problem X and solved it this way"
I have lots of stuff I've written that I don't post here. I usually only enter the competitions.(short time scales and they challenge my creative envelope)  Mainly because I don't feel the need to get constant feed back, I know the limitations of my output, and I am working to learn the skills and techniques to improve.

So I ask... to all posters of songs for review.  WHAT AM I ACTUALLY REVIEWING FOR? and WHAT DO YOU WANT OF ME AS A REVIEWER?

"Tread lightly because you're treading on my dreams" No idea who said that but until I have the skills and knowledge to over-ride it. I'll go with it.

[nooms]

was yeats who wrote that line i think,
funny but second time this week his names come up.
he never had clipping concerns though other than his beard and the wee hedge outside.

[James Nighthawk]

"Tread lightly because you're treading on my dreams" No idea who said that but until I have the skills and knowledge to over-ride it. I'll go with it.

What a lovely quote.

We should all remember this. When reviewing people's work we are commenting on their creation. One they have toilded over, we should hope! Tact and polite critism is the way forward

[tone]

A very good thread this - thanks to whoever started it (can't remember haha)

But here's the rub: a song is a song regardless of whether or not it's a record, right? BUT - and this is a big one, all the songs you really love, the ones that made you want to be a songwriter, you first heard them as records.

That doesn't detract from the fact that they're great songs, but it does mean that someone recognised their potential and invested in them sufficiently to make them into records. If you'd heard them outside of that context, in their raw state, would you have still liked them?

I'm not saying that reviewing a demo recording from a technical point of view is the way forward. I'm saying that the reason we're having this conversation is that songwriting and recording are two sides of the same coin for independent songwriters in the 21st century. It's getting more and more important to be good at both - same for composers, especially working for TV and media.

So at what point does songwriting become production? It depends on how you define production and arrangement I suppose. For me, arrangement is the flow of the song - the narrative. How to arrange all the sections so that it's a journey, something that carries you with it. Other folks see the arrangement as the coming-together of the different instruments, and the parts they play (as in 'string arrangement'

Everything from the strumming pattern down to the frequency of the kick drum sound can effect the way your song is received. So what constitutes a song review?

The whole range.

Personally, I think the forumite asking for the review should say if they're only looking for comments in a certain area.

And remember, active members aren't the only ones reading these threads and listening to your tracks. A comment you leave on someone's song might just be exactly what some anonymous lurker needs to hear.

Sorry if I've sat on the fence here. A few months ago I would have been in 100% agreement with Kafla, but now I'm not so sure...

[S.T.C]

And remember, active members aren't the only ones reading these threads and listening to your tracks. A comment you leave on someone's song might just be exactly what some anonymous lurker needs to hear.

didn`t quite get this?

anyway..a review should be just what you think and are able to say.....i have no technical knowledge ,but if i say some things good ,thats what i think so the OG poster should feel some satisfaction that they achieved what they set out to accomplish...end of.

[Kafla]

A very good thread this - thanks to whoever started it (can't remember haha)

But here's the rub: a song is a song regardless of whether or not it's a record, right? BUT - and this is a big one, all the songs you really love, the ones that made you want to be a songwriter, you first heard them as records.

That doesn't detract from the fact that they're great songs, but it does mean that someone recognised their potential and invested in them sufficiently to make them into records. If you'd heard them outside of that context, in their raw state, would you have still liked them?

I'm not saying that reviewing a demo recording from a technical point of view is the way forward. I'm saying that the reason we're having this conversation is that songwriting and recording are two sides of the same coin for independent songwriters in the 21st century. It's getting more and more important to be good at both - same for composers, especially working for TV and media.

So at what point does songwriting become production? It depends on how you define production and arrangement I suppose. For me, arrangement is the flow of the song - the narrative. How to arrange all the sections so that it's a journey, something that carries you with it. Other folks see the arrangement as the coming-together of the different instruments, and the parts they play (as in 'string arrangement'

Everything from the strumming pattern down to the frequency of the kick drum sound can effect the way your song is received. So what constitutes a song review?

The whole range.

Personally, I think the forumite asking for the review should say if they're only looking for comments in a certain area.

And remember, active members aren't the only ones reading these threads and listening to your tracks. A comment you leave on someone's song might just be exactly what some anonymous lurker needs to hear.

Sorry if I've sat on the fence here. A few months ago I would have been in 100% agreement with Kafla, but now I'm not so sure...

I agree with all of this - although I am obviously not making my point well enough - entirely my fault  

I want more comments on the arrangements - the strings , the choice of vst for each part , the counter melodies , the discordance - this for me is all part of the writing.

What I am talking about is the technie sub conversations around this frequency and that - you simply can't ignore it - because the next poster will pipe up - I can hear that static interference in the mid to high range , 100-243 kHz as well, then the next poster - then the next 'expert ' will pipe up - no your are wrong its not that it's causing it - then they will argue over there credentials - and so on until the song is kind of lost - it does happen!

And Tone - if I can be so bold   - you add value to most threads you enter - I really respect your opinion , I know others do too - but you review very few songs ?

And you are the leader ?

Please feel free to kick my cyber balls - but it's true  

[tone]

It's true - you got me bang to rights. I don't review many songs. And I'm not going to kick you in the cyber balls either (note to self: 'accidentally' delete Kaf's account in a few weeks time )

It's largely a time issue. I don't spend nearly as much time on the forum as I should or would like to, but paid work has to take priority, and I've had the busiest time ever.

I do still listen to a lot of the songs on the forum, but I'm finding it increasingly hard to put together a helpful review, partly because of some of the points that have been raised in this thread.

And when it's a member you don't know well, or haven't had many exchanges with, it's hard to know where the line is when it comes to gentle criticism.

Because lets face it: there's a big chunk of personal taste involved. And when I read a review that basically says "it's not my cup of tea" I wonder why bother saying that. But then I also acknowledge that someone took the time to post.

Also, the tone of the reviews forum has been getting more technical - and I'm not a technician. It may be 'my' forum, but it's still directed by the members. In many ways I've felt like others are more qualified to comment on some issues I hear in a song, so I let them do it. There's only so much you can say about melody and harmony without running out of metaphors, or confusing people.

I don't want to leave trite, shallow or insincere reviews, and I don't want to post for the sake of it, so generally I won't post unless I have something I think is valuable and honest to say - and that doesn't happen with every song.

But I do try to remain active in other forum conversations to let you know I'm still here and still care about you and the forum.

Thanks for speaking up Kaf

[S.T.C]

quote.

Because lets face it: there's a big chunk of personal taste involved. And when I read a review that basically says "it's not my cup of tea" I wonder why bother saying that. But then I also acknowledge that someone took the time to post.

Right(rolling shirt sleeves up)

I probably reply to topics ..in all sections more than anyone? cos i`m on the comp a lot ,keep this site open..so i find it no trouble to just say summat!

Like you`ve said  ..theres only so many words and phrases you can keep saying  ,.before you slip into cliché..

So .."it`s not my cup of tea"..basically summed  i how i felt...it`s not a criticism of the song or the artist..i can listen to it..it may well grow on me.....

Also i` know zip about the science of song making..

If i just left "good" as my feedback,,,,,that means i rate it...and anyone can take that as a big thumbs up that they produced something worthwhile.....

Over to you KAFLA

[Kafla]

Hee hee

Its good to get this out in the open - I like to understand where everyone is coming from - sometimes you judge people wrongly or misunderstand them.

I think Tone's point about using actual recordings as our reference is very valid - we are all amateurs on here trying to improve - yet sometimes we ferociously criticise 'demos' to these standards

My point is when we get into the technicalities its got to be right and wrong - if something is clipping for example it must be - if something needs a boost at whatever khz then it does - but all the techies argue about it - how can that be? I read it all and then start to question who really knows what - the next viewpoint is more cogent than the last.

I dont want anyone to change or feel threatened by the topic - if you have the knowledge please flaunt it - I suppose I just want the reviews to more closely focus on the writing - that was the major reason I got sucked into this community and hung around.

And STC if you want to leave - its good - thats fine as well - I do this sometimes - it shows you have taken the time to listen 

[Boydie]

My point is when we get into the technicalities its got to be right and wrong

Ah ha - now we are getting to it! lol

The simple answer to this is NO - there are very few "rights & wrongs" when it comes to production and the technicalities

The more I have started learning about production the more I understand that there are few "rights & wrongs"

It is exactly the same as any other part of songwiriting - there are some general "rules" and guidelines but they can all be broken to achieve a desired effect

e.g. a song should have a verse, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge

This is kind of accepted wisdom but is often mangled to suit the song

Exactly the same thing is true with production - e.g. vocals should be clear and not clip - I can think of all sorts of vocal effects that have a really crappy lo-fi quality that break the rules - but they fit

For me it is about learning all of the "rules" (both songwriting and production), which is relatively easy

The real skill then comes in using the rules to create something "unique" and learning how to break the rules to achieve a desired effect

Something as simple as EQing a Kick drum (which is just a thud after all!) would be done completely differently by each "pro" producer, who may agonise over days or weeks to achieve the perfect sound by layering up different kick sounds etc.

There are some general "rules" and guidelines with regard to EQ and compression but I bet no two people would process a kick in exactly the same way

This may seem to be bordering on OCD but to some it is as important in making a line of lyric work

[andy5544]

I am guilty of the not my cup of tea thing , so why do I bother leaving a comment ?
I leave a comment just to say that I bothered to listen and can still appreciate  the  quality of the music  and the time and effort that has been spent on it.
I find 99% of the reviews on here fair and helpfull , even if its just a well done, lt gives you a little lift, and no oneseems too brutal , there is one that's a bit over sarcasticat times  no names 
Generally very good place to be , thanks,

[Boydie]

+1 to the "not my cup of tea" comment

I think this is a great "opener" to a review - I do not recall seeing it on its own

It is usually followed by either

...so take the following with a pinch of salt...

or

...but I still really liked / could appreciate...

I think being up front that it is not your kind of thing helps put the review in to context so I think it is a useful opener