Best way to review a song?

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Kafla

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« on: September 02, 2012, 09:57:28 AM »
Thought I would start a discussion  ;D

I don't mean this to be taken the wrong way and I am genuinely just looking for people's views so I hope no one thinks I am referring to them in this.

The way I see it this is a songwriting forum - we should aim to review the songwriting.

Sometimes I feel we get bogged down in production matters and at times this can be at the expense of the actual song. There is a recording section in the forum and I would have thought that this would be the best place to discuss technical aspects of recording.

A beautiful virus picked up on some clipping on my latest song ( which I agree with the good man  :D ) but 90% of his review was around the song so I was more than happy with the good advice around avoiding this clipping. I think ABV reviews really brilliantly.

 I suppose what I object to is 300 word reviews all around frequencies , plug ins which I can't even spell and anything being too prominent in the mix. This is a massive turn off for me - partly as I don't understand it ( I hold my hands up ) but more importantly as I don't think it matters - as long as the song is presented in nice clean manner I think we should all be able to envisage what it could sound like - I realise some recordings are so poor it makes reviewing the song impossible.

I have listened to numerous remixes and repost after repost of the same song on here where someone has tweaked the mix or reworked the drums etc and quite frankly it makes no difference to me - the actual song is still as strong or as weak as I first thought - I fully accept that this might just be me and maybe some of you want something different from this forum.

It sometime turns into a game of who can spot the production flaw / I am the most technical on the forum.

Now a simple solution might just be to state in advance review the song / review the production or both -  I don't know - I just thought I would throw this out there ???

As I say nothing personal here - I love everyone but I need to know if this only irks me  :-*

Paul

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« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 10:16:27 AM »
I couldn't agree more with the whole of your post Andy.   This is meant to be a songwriting forum.  Ask for production tips if that's what you want but please, let's focus on the songwriting!

The Corsair

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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 10:52:16 AM »
I think it's a fine line...

Personally I think saying things like 'the drums are a bit quiet' is alright if it's because of how they've been played or something of the like (related to playing the song, not recording) but saying 'the drums are too far back in the mix' starts off those technical discussions you find tiresome.
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Boydie

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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 11:03:18 AM »
I agree in part but I also disagree  ???

For me it is all down to the context of the track

If a track is posted as a "demo" or an actual release then the production is as important as the the song itself (there, I have said it!!!)

What I mean by this is that the days of sending in a crackly cassette of an acoustic guitar and vocal to a publisher or A&R person - expecting them to imagine a full production - are LONG gone

Any demo nowadays needs to sound like the finished product

If we start ignoring production then should we be ignoring perfomance as well?

For me it is all part and parcel of the "package"

If someone posts a great song that could be improved by a better arrangement, mix, EQ tweak then I think it is fair game to mention and discuss this - if it improves the overall "package"

Where I do agree 100% with you KAFLA is that I think people should be much more expressive in their original post

I have said it before - it would be far easier for the reviewers to give useful feedback if the "intent" of the song was expressed in more detail in the original post

Eg. "Here is a song I am about to pitch to a record company", "here is my new single release", "here is a song I have written for commercial interest", "here is a song I have written to express myself" "here is a song to experiment with key changes" etc.

Whilst not mutually exclusive each "intent" would get a slightly different style of review

I don't think it is "right" to separate the writing, arrangement, performance, production, etc. but I do agree the reviews could be more focussed on the "intent" of the song - as long as this is expressed in the original post
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Kafla

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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 12:32:13 PM »
I think once everything is recorded , you have selected your tempo , key  lyrics and you have your 10 tracks ready and it's all at the mixing stage you essentially have your song

Mixing is so subjective - we all like different things

I accept that a really great mixer will get the best out of a song but I refuse to accept that a poor mix would result in the song being labelled poor or not being accepted by a record label for example - a record company would also pay to get the song properly produced and mixed anyway.

If we are seriously sweating over whether the drums or any other insruments are not eq'd properly then this needs to be changed to the song producing forum

I speak for myself entirely but if that's the way we are going - which wasn't how the forum used to be - then I think we are going to drive even more good guys away


Boydie

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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 12:53:53 PM »
Quote
Mixing is so subjective - we all like different things

and songs aren't!  :o   ???

There is no right and wrong here so I do think a discussion is healthy

Quote
I refuse to accept that a poor mix would result in the song being labelled poor or not being accepted by a record label for example - a record company would also pay to get the song properly produced and mixed anyway.

I think you are right to a point - I guess it all depends on how bad the mix/performance/arrangement etc. is. The music inductry has changed and A&R people are NOT generally musicians so for them to hear a song as a hit - then it needs to sound like a hit, with good writing, arranging, performance, mixing and producing

Songs are being pitched by pros with all of these boxes ticked (plus a lot more if you take in to account previous track record, existing contacts, relationships etc.) so the chance of a publisher or A&R listening to, let alone taking on, a sub par demo are extremely remote

That is not to say you are not right though KAFLA

This forum should be the place to post these types of songs to get feedback - I don't see a problem with giving feedback on all aspects - if a particular aspect does not interest you then you can quite rightly dismiss it

I sometimes feel the same when someone posts a pop song for review and they get torn apart for not having "deep and meaningful" lyrics

I think the forums here should be a place for ALL feedback (as any feedback must be valuable) but I do agree that one should have their own "filter" to the feedback and decide which to take on board

I personally get a lot out of reading other people's reviews of other people's songs - both on the song and the production - some I agree with and some I don't but I do enjoy seeing the difference of opinion


Of course what I have said above only applies to those that intend to pitch commercial songs to publishers and record companies

If people are writing for enjoyment, to express themselves, to develop their craft etc. then I do agree with you 100% KAFLA

As I said before, if people are worried about getting production comments (or don't want them) then I think it is perfectly acceptable to put this in the original post

If people want specific feedback on a particular aspect - lyrics, melody, arrangement, production, commerciality, then I also think it is fine to put this in the OP

We must all do our own bit to get the best out of the forum IMHO
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Kafla

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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 02:55:07 PM »
Seriously Boydie I agree with most of what you say and generally say on the forum

And perhaps I am not making my point clearly

It's the obsessively technical reviews that I detest - I have no problem with the odd comment about panning, levels , even eq ing but when we start to delve into this frequency and that , boosting whatever and whatever at this kHz -  I am like - is this star trek or a songwriters forum ?

Shooting from the hip it gets geeky - and does it improve the songwriting - NO - I will never deter from that view

And yet hardly any comments on lyrics, medlody, chord progressions , tempo , emotions WTF is that all about ?

Boydie

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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 03:41:55 PM »
Yeah, I get what you are saying and I do agree

I have made a conscious effort to improve this area of knowledge this year so I find these comments fascinating - although I haven't quite earned my geek T-shirt yet!

I do think the comments are made with the best intentions - ie giving specific EQ frequencies to look at for specific effects - however you are right where you say it is the song that is most important

Production will make a good song sound great - but will not do the same for a bad song

You can't polish a turd...

...but you can roll it in glitter  :D  ;)
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Kafla

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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 04:28:53 PM »
 ;D

I would love to get more positivity back as well - lets praise the things we all do well rather than focus too much on the negatives

I am a great believer in any coaching or feedback that you only pinpoint one weakness even if there are several

I just feel recently there have been a few outstanding songs posted , really top drawer ( not mines  :-X ) but they have got lost in inane discussions around drums, or vocal effects

We are a great little community

Just a little tact before we all review  ;D
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 05:01:43 PM by Kafla »

James Nighthawk

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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 05:14:14 PM »
Just a few thoughts from the top of my head on this matter

-I agree this place should stay focused on songsmanship. There are lots of forums out there for production tech.

-Production is intrinsically linked with arrangement. And arrangement is part of songwriting. If it were not, all songs would be submitted with one instrument and one vocal. Sometimes it is near impossible to ignore production if discussing the arrangement; the development and presentation of these arrangements is down in part to the production

-I always try to focus on the song first. The song is always key. A great song badly recorded trumps a naff song covered in glitter.

-When giving production points I try to talk in over arching terms rather than specifics. I get specific when people ask specific questions (The Ocean Machine recently mentioned muddiness, I gave some very precise EQ tweaks that could help).

-There are a good few people on here that love discussions about production points. These people I engage with as such. Sometimes in the thread sometimes in PMs, esp if particular questions are asked. If those posts aren't your thing, skip over them!

-As Boydie says, it helps if the initial post flags any area's in which the reviewer would like advice.

-Some production flaws need pointing out. Clipping, especially if resulting in square waves, is not acceptable, ever, as it can damage speaker and headphones. People must, must learn to avoid for everyone's sake :)

-Often, the best songs receive reviews that focus more on the minutiae, as when the song is generally great, only the little things are left to pick apart! This should be taken as a compliment :)

-Don't forget, this place rocks, and don't get caught up in niggles  8) 8)
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Boydie

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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2012, 05:19:13 PM »
I think JAMES' post would have cut through little better if he reduced the plate reverb, added a high pass filter and boosted his EQ slightly at 1Khz

Not forgetting the compression of course  :P
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Kafla

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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2012, 05:52:35 PM »
Ha ha Boydie

I like to do my own research and one thing I read a whole ago was this

http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/clipping.shtml

Allegedly clipping will not damage your speakers  :D

But this illustrates my point more than anything - when it gets technical who do you believe ? :o

One mans gospel is anothers bullshit  ;)

And an antique is still an antique regardless of whether it's polished or not  ::)

James Nighthawk

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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2012, 07:53:11 PM »
Kafla, look away....Here comes a techie post!
;)

Clipping:

I have read about this, studied and debated during my Uni days, heard many opinions and tried to absorb as much of the Science as I can. As you correctly say Kafla, there are many conflicting views out there and even now I am learning. As such, do not take this as gospel, just the amalgamation of my learning so far...


Bottom line...

Clipping is bad

Digital flat-lining is bad sound. It sounds granulated and uncomfortable, especially on good headphones/speakers. Badly set output levels and/or compressors during production are the main culprits for these sounds. During the peak of the loudness race (late 90's, early 00's), and (perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not...)before the advent of the extra headroom 24BIT and 32FLOAT provided mastering engineers, clipping became an issue for many well known commercial releases. Oasis "Be Here Now". RHCP "Californication. Two albums I cannot touch as they were RUINED at the master stage.

Do they damage my headphones/speakers? Perhaps. Maybe. Slowly. Over time. Fully peaked "flatlined" sound puts speaker drivers at fully pelt, for extended periods. This is potentially a risk, dependant on how resilient the sound source is.

Over and above anything, Clipped sounds SOUND bad. They are hugely annoying to anyone with an ear for it.

The big place clipping is of risk to speakers is actually during the production phase. In studio speaker monitors. Also guitar/bass/PA amps...

I have had to replace three bass amp speakers in the last 9 months due to customers setting the input drive to 10, and playing too hard (I decided enough was enough. Sold the amps and replaced with amps with 3 times the power: no need to push them so hard now!). Clipped bass frequencies are notoriously bad apparenly...

PA speakers, Studio monitors, etc, often have limiters inside that refuse to play clipped sounds.

When the sound source is the studio mixer, the 0db limit of home listening systems do not apply, so they can be pushed past the red, with damaging sound a clear risk. My Mackie speakers "dim" their sound momentarily when a clipped sound is sent thru them, in a self-protecting mechanism. Clever stuff.

As such, it was drilled into me at college/Uni to always, always avoid clipping in all circumstances. The best way to protect ears, speakers, and to maintain a higher standard of sound in general :D

I repeat. Do not read the above as gospel. Yes, I do this for a living but I have holes in my knowledge and the technical nitty gritty is not my forte, I will admit this. I am much more the creative producer type than the science guy. I do admire their commitment, it just isn't me.

I hope the above makes at least some sense :)
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Kafla

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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 07:59:19 PM »
Hee Hee

Didn't read it but like your style  ;)

James Nighthawk

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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2012, 07:59:43 PM »
I think JAMES' post would have cut through little better if he reduced the plate reverb, added a high pass filter and boosted his EQ slightly at 1Khz

Not forgetting the compression of course  :P

I saw a great tweet recently. I think it was from Mumford and Sons/The leisure Society, or some nu-folk band I follow...

It said:

"If in doubt, reverb"

 ;D
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