[Kafla]

I feel I lose something in my playing when I record the guitar onto a track in isolation

I would love to sing and play at the same time and record this - that way I get the emotion in the guitar - hope this makes sense 

So I thought I need 2 mics - one for voice and one for vocal

How do I stop bleeding to each mic and can anyone suggest a way to record this well on two separate tracks ?

 

[Boydie]

My initial reaction is that it is a bit of a "in your head" thing about not being able to capture as much emotion by not playing instruments together

With a bit of practice and experience I am sure you would be able to capture MORE emotion by focussing on each bit separately

However, careful mic placement (vocal mic pointing up from guitar etc.) can yield great results

A bit of spill is inevitable but as long as you work "with it" than drive yourself mad trying to remove it I think you will be fine

[nooms]

your new geetar hasnt got a pick up in it then Kaf ?
If you had a decent pick up, (theyre not expensive and fit easily into the soundhole ) you could DI the gtr direct into your recorder and mic it at the same time whilst singing along. ( mind you , dont know how many inputs youve got either ? )

That way you would get a ‘seperated’ gtr part. doing that anyway can achieve a nice effect.. trial & error eq wise...
its a good problem to have though cos it forces you to ‘perform’ and get the bastard down right, gtr and vocal in one go if you can, heart of the song .  Limitations are not always a bad thing.

Other way would be a concrete box with your head poking out singing into a mic whilst your hands played the gtr inside the box. ( have a look on the blue circle website..)  you could probably put a little double glazed window in it to check where you are ..

[James Nighthawk]

Other way would be a concrete box with your head poking out singing into a mic whilst your hands played the gtr inside the box. ( have a look on the blue circle website..)  you could probably put a little double glazed window in it to check where you are ..

LOL

Hilarious

Mic's hear. Thats what they do, pick up sound. If you play and sing you will get spill. Either deal with the spill of improve the playing and singing separate. Boydie has a point, you should be able to do both better when seperate. But, equally, Kaf you are also correct, there is a certain "rightness" about playing and singing together that I feel.

But I do wonder if this is more noticed by the artist than the listeners.

[Ramshackles]

That makes total sense Kaf...bands and artists are often tracked together to get that certain kind of togetherness and emotion you dont get when multitracking. Good players intuitively shape the guitar playing around their voice, following it's ebbs and flows and that is something that is hard to capture when multitracking.

The decemeberists recorded their most recent album mostly 'live' as it were, and The tallest man on earth (great artist, just guitar and vox) does all his stuff 'live'.

Spillage cant be completely removed, which means things like autotuning is out of the question, as is much editing after the recording....or rather, it's tricky.
But it can be handled so that you can balance the vocal and guitar tracks and possible phase issues from having 2 mic's aren't so much of a problem.

One rule of thumb I've heard said a lot is something like: 'When recording guitar and vox together, something always has to be compromised a bit. That HAS to be the guitar'. The idea being that the listener can forgive a lot of what goes on in the backing as long as the vocal/melody is clear and pristine. Listening to old beatles and beach boys records you can often hear mistakes and technicians (or even Brian Wilson) shouting stuff like 'Cut' in the background, clicks of tape machines and stuff like that. But never in the vocals which are always great.


Anyway...the point being; spend your effort on isolating the guitar and leave the vocal as great as you can. Use the polarity of your microphones to your advantage. Figure 8 mics reject almost everything from the sides, so try to setup your guitar mic so that your vocals are directed towards it's null points.
Small diaphragm condenser are often preferred for the guitar mic and LDC's for the vocals. That will already give your vocal a bit more weight and power than the guitar, pushing it toward 'the front' before even doing anything in mixing.

I've read a tip in soundonsound where they say that angling the guitar mic a bit behind the soundhole (i.e off your right shoulder) and having the singer look a little to their left when singing (as long as it is not uncomfy) can improve isolation. It maximizes the distance between the 2 mics and if you are using a figure 8 for the guitar, you are singing more or less perpendicular to it's axis. They recommend putting duvets or a reflexion filter behind/around the guitar mic...


At 31 seconds on this video you get a great look at how they have positioned the mics:

Again, an SDC for guitar. Also looks like a dynamic mic for voice which is something you might try as they will only accept sound coming from the front.

Depending on where you normally sing, you might want to get a little closer to the mic as well so that your voice is by far the overpowering 'noise' in that mic.

This kind of recording depends a lot on a good room aswell...either you have to embrace the natural reverb of your room and say 'thats how its going to be'. Or you need a very dead room (like in that radio studio on the clip) so you can put reverb in later with no problems.

This whole track was live for the radio:
http://soundcloud.com/ramshackles/child-live-on-bbc-humberside

Much more emphasis on the vocals (very nervous wobbly vocals:P)

[Ramshackles]

Oh and btw - you have 2 preamp inputs/2 inputs on your audio interface? And fine with setting it all up in your DAW?

[Kafla]

Thanks everyone and to Nooms for making me laugh as normal

Cheers RS - you are forever helpful on the technical side

Got to say I disagree with the thought that you can play better in isolation

There is nothing better than the communion of instruments and voices , even if its just voice and guitar, it goes beyond the sum of the parts. When I recorded in bands it was always turned out best when we recorded together in different rooms with headphones on - feeding off that energy.

I think you want to do the opposite of concentrate, play through your subconscious.

I also think you miss the dynamics of the instrument playing it in isolation.

But great suggestions everyone - I am off to build my wall with a hole for my head

[AKingsMercury]

I agree with Ramshackles. If you try to isolate your singing from playing take two figure 8 mics and direct one to your mouth and the dead end to your guitar and the other one directed to your guitar and the dead end to your mouth.
Michael Stavrou describes it in Mixing With Your Mind. Never really tried it but i guess it works fine.

[Ramshackles]

Hey Kaf, bringing this back up to say that if you haven't already, you need to check out july's issue of soundonsound as it's main piece is exactly this