[Kafla]

You are taking it all well James and in the spirit it was intended 

I tell you what to do - go away and listen to Ramshackles music - he has this other worldy thing going on - I think it works well for him , he seems to have created a style/niche all of his own

Perhaps this will illustrate my point better - it just sounds more authentic and consistent.

I am in no doubt of the integrity and passion you have for your lyrics and music - that is there for all to see

[andy5544]

Lol. Wordgate. Made me chuckle. I feel heartened that people are so caring about such small details. There is much love here

The words were choosen because they said what I wanted to say in a pleasant sounding way. Simple. There is no arrogance here

"Defend thyself from thine decay" is me saying "Be careful of the imminent fall I can see you are at risk of, by acting the way you are during these recent days"...

"Defend YOURself from YOUR decay" didn't ring correctly; the TH sounds had a bite to them that sounded great to project so I went with them. The aged words gave them a feel that I liked against the single note melody at that part in the song, almost reminiscent of my choir boy days... Psalms and plainsong.... A certain "chant" like feel that went with the line.


"Forsooth we incompatible" :

In stanza One I ask "yet if we incompatible".This was originally "for if...". I changed it at the recording session as the "Yet" gave me a hard "T" sound to separate the two words, which cut better when recording.
With the final line of the song I have decided in my mind that "Indeed we are Incompatible". As such, "For if/Yet if" turned to "forsooth". One syllable change to switch my stance, a word trick.

I knew it wasn't a commonly used word, but it is in my vocabulary, so I used it. I had no idea it would be a controversial, tis but a word.

I enjoy all poetry, whether that be Shakespeare or Eminem. The more words the better. The is no arrogance or showing off, just a love of words and word play.

Here is a line from a song I am writing at the moment. I think it is clever word play again: But NOW I am concerned that the word itself will be disliked?!?

"Naysayers brush right past you / Naysaying that they're bored"

Is "naysayers" past it sell by date?

Perhaps I should use "player-haters" instead
 
I is so street       

James , think you're ok with naysayers/ nay saying , it's used in the first Tenatious D album on "inward singing" so it must be cool 

[James Nighthawk]

You are taking it all well James and in the spirit it was intended 

I tell you what to do - go away and listen to Ramshackles music - he has this other worldy thing going on - I think it works well for him , he seems to have created a style/niche all of his own

Perhaps this will illustrate my point better - it just sounds more authentic and consistent.

I am in no doubt of the integrity and passion you have for your lyrics and music - that is there for all to see

I have checked out his music, I am quite the fan

You make good points as always Kaf.

You have had longer to grow accustomed to his style, I have only been here since March time, perhaps that is part of it

Yes I do have integrity in what I do, I think all artists should, and a little explanation/defence of choices is healthy, assuming it avoids fingers-in-ear arrogance! Otherwise where is the point in having critiques from anyone!?! 

However to counter my own arguments here a little, there are scant few other examples on my album of such old language. Some "ne'er", a "slather" and "nevertheless", maybe a "reprise"...

As such this probably will be the last instance it jars for a while. It has been very eye opening to hear peoples' contrasting views. As always big thanks to everyone for dropping their thoughts on this thread

 

[Schavuitje]

I'm a great lover of language and I like to see it being used in unusual ways much the same as I like the actual music to be doing
unusual an interesting things. I love to play with language too.
Unfortunately I have to agree with Kaf on this one in that it Jar's my ears in this particular song, even though I think the music is really cool.
It might not be arrogance or whatever you want to call it but unfortunately (just me saying stuff as I see it as usual  )  it comes across as being
really searched for and like you are trying to be too clever in this instance. Don't take this the wrong way but it sounds really gay too 

Which is probably why flossie loves it. It's soft 

I don't know... It's your music after all and if you like it and are happy with it then that's cool. BUT... with so many others not liking it and finding a problem with it,
I personally would draw the line at how far I would go wriggling around defending it and come to the consclusion that if a lot of people are finding problem with it,
there's a problem.
No smoke without fire sort of thing. If a hundred people are pointing shouting fire. I wouldn't need to look. I would think, there's a fire.

Of course all your reasons and explanations are good but sometimes it does come across as if you will just not accept things. It's good to stick up for your idea's and explain
your choices of course but in pretty much always sticking rigidly to your own thoughts about the piece and not accepting that most people are being turned off by the
word choices, it seems like you know it all, you are right etc... Arrogance.
I'm not saying you are arrogant my friend. Just the way it sometimes comes across.

Having said that, people probably think I am arrogant too with my lack of interest in the four chord, un-syncopated, straight 4/4 shite that I hear so often. 

I still think the music is cool though 

[James Nighthawk]

This is very interesting. I have come to a realisation today

This forum is an odd place. It is a rare example of a situation where an artist/musician can be critiqued and then offer a rebuttal. Usually when people review music it is a one way thing; magazine, net review, etc. This is largely why musicians hate Critics. They can hide behind their words and never offer any music up themselves. It can be a seen as cowardly.

However. Art exists in the eyes and ears of the listener. It should speak for itself. It shouldn't need explaining. As such I plan on approaching this review section differently when putting my own work up. Critiques are what they are and I will take them for it. If I disagree, so be it. As people have said, there are no rights and wrongs, only opinions.

As such, my closing thank you for this thread should have (and now will) read:

"Thank you all for you kind words. I am glad this has gone down so very well. Some of you haven't taken to a few of my word choices, this has sparked thought as I honestly hadn't thought it would be a factor either way. This will be considered in my future work. Much Love"

And as a final act of humility, I am gonna do something a little odd. Here is MY critique of this song, with some thoughts I was expecting people to bring up?! Negatives only, of course!

-The main melody line of the vocal and the electric guitar is largely the same, perhaps some variance between the two might break it up a little?
-Depsite setting a mood, perhaps it takes a little too long for the song/vocal to enter. It is a risky move
-The bass doesn't really add anything, sitting on the roots. With such an open arrangement, perhaps a little movement would fill out the track a little?
-The song is split into two stanzas, which have identical arrangements and melodies. Perhaps a different instrument could provide a subtle change to stanza 2?
-The ending: Despite not being a fan of fade outs as a rule, this kind of mood piece might have benefitted from a slow disappearing? Equally the "dum-ba dum" vocal outro is a little loose for an already laid back piece.


 

[Ramshackles]

You are taking it all well James and in the spirit it was intended  

I tell you what to do - go away and listen to Ramshackles music - he has this other worldy thing going on - I think it works well for him , he seems to have created a style/niche all of his own

Perhaps this will illustrate my point better - it just sounds more authentic and consistent.

I am in no doubt of the integrity and passion you have for your lyrics and music - that is there for all to see

I have checked out his music, I am quite the fan

You make good points as always Kaf.

You have had longer to grow accustomed to his style, I have only been here since March time, perhaps that is part of it

Yes I do have integrity in what I do, I think all artists should, and a little explanation/defence of choices is healthy, assuming it avoids fingers-in-ear arrogance! Otherwise where is the point in having critiques from anyone!?!  

However to counter my own arguments here a little, there are scant few other examples on my album of such old language. Some "ne'er", a "slather" and "nevertheless", maybe a "reprise"...

As such this probably will be the last instance it jars for a while. It has been very eye opening to hear peoples' contrasting views. As always big thanks to everyone for dropping their thoughts on this thread

 

  I don't think I've really posted much music since you joined anyway! I'll say a bit more as I didn't have much time when writing the little tidbit I wrote:

 Sometimes, I don't think it is so much the words that don't gel but the delivery.
I didn't have a problem with the words (apart from that one line I mentioned...couldn't work out why you left out the 'are'!!), but I get the feeling it is not your 'natural' voice? It's very breathy and with some 'voice cracking' but because it doesn't feel like your natural voice to me, the cracks and breathyness feels forced, so that the emotion/intrigue that this singing style should inject isn't there.

I know it's easy for me to say as I can just hide behind our singers, but whenever we discuss how to sing a song, it doesn't go much beyond saying 'just be comfortable singing it how you would normally sing it'. That often means changing round lyrics etc. If she can happily belt it out in the shower then we are there ...Anyway, going off the track there.
It could be interesting just to hear you sing it, without thinking about how it should be sung, or putting any thought into it at all

It's difficult to compare lyrics as I never use 'olde' words (leastways not knowingly anyway) even though it might sound that way!! My lyrics are generally vague and abstract which maybe can give an impression of being sophisticated or grand when they are just trivial. Your lyrics are more direct I suppose, often with a metaphor to describe....what it is you are describing . Which is much harder to do. For me anyways!

At the very end of everything, I think authenticity shouldn't be something you have to think about (I get the impression you do think about it a lot...maybe I'm wrong?). I'm always under the impression that the latest thing I've written is quite different to the previous thing. But in reality it's obviously isn't! The reason is probably that I'm never really aiming for any particular style when writing. When arranging I just work with what I've got (took a bit of time to teach myself to though). Anyway, I lost the point again. Authenticity is there if you go in blind......Ok, just confusing myself now.

Now going to James' latest post, just to add my uninvited thoughts to the world (forum) in general :

I think that what you get out of this review section depends a bit on what you want to get out of song writing/music. Going in broadly, I'd say that everyone here at least wants to improve  whether it's for fun, they are pro, or aiming to be pro.

But how can these critiques help us improve if there are no rights and wrongs? Well, I think in order to improve you have to work out what your genre(s) is. It's annoying to have to think you have a genre, but I would say that the critique of a fan of your genre might be more informative that people who don't like your genre anyway. Of course, peoples tastes are (hopefully) broader than 1 genre, as your song writing might be, but you get the idea.
Then based on that, I would say that there is a right and wrong. Sort of. Go by what the fans of your genre think. And go by history. Immerse yourself in music...
Anyway, rambling again.

I mentioned production and you touched on it with the bass. I'm hearing a fair amount of mud, maybe room sound, around 100-150hz which can be why the bass is lost in the song a bit. If that was cleaned up the bass could give some weight and cut through despite just sitting on the roots..
This room sound jars a bit with some of the reverb used as well...
I'm not such a fan of that tinny sounding snare...it's either not deep/heavy enough for the song, or reducing it to a brush hit might be better IMO. The tom fill is nice and maybe using the toms a bit more could add a bit of variety and movement. Not for more fills, just for the general rhythm.

Well...I'll stop brain farting on this thread now...

[Schavuitje]

  Ram you kill me  You posts are always epic 
Just wanted to post here again because I didn't want you, James, to think I was being mean or spiteful or whatever you might think.
You know I always speak honestly and straight out of my head, typing as I go, which sometimes in the past has given people problems
with me.
I can't help that, it's just me, but in no way do I intend to be mean. Honestly.
Just in case it comes across that way. Like it has in the past 
I honestly don't care about that "muddy" bass that my friend Ram is talking about. I really enjoyed the music very much. Whether it could be mixed/produced better
is niether here nor there for me and you are much, much better at that than I anyway. 
I do agree with Ram on the vocal style, it does feel fake which is maybe one of the reasons, now that I think about it, why I sometimes
have difficulty with your vocals.

Like you say mate, it's all a matter of opinion.    And I do genuinly like it when the writer explains his choices and reasons for things that
people bring up. Sometimes it can change the way I think about it myself.
But what I also like is humilty.
What I personaly try to do is explain my choices at the same time as listening to all critisism's and actually taking them on board. I know there's things I'm really
good at. And I know there a plenty things in which I am glad of peoples input.
The key thing is to make that obvious in my post -  Explain my choices AND make sure that everyone who has a critisism knows I have taken on board what
they have said and that I will look at it. I may not change everything people bring up, but I make sure I am humble enough to say that
I will certainly give it some attention.
And again I'll say it mate, it's a damn fine tune you have there. 

[S.T.C]

This song just needs a new singer ,someone one with clear diction who can twist their tongues around the lyrics...it is sort of strange,not main stream..medieval ...chamber music..at least thats how i hear it.

[James Nighthawk]

Argh!! 

How many songs do I have to post before people stop saying that I sing "fake". This is my singing voice!! I can't fake it. I sing how I sing. It is slightly airy. I have proven that across many of my songs...  Next up I will post a live song so there will be no editing and effects etc.  Please. Let it drop. I can't help but take it personally now.

And I have been accused of over enuciation and "unclear diction" separately. WTF?

I am getting cheesed off now.

Considering the number of off key singers, iPhone recordings and god awful mixes I sit thru on here (and ignore all these factors) to focus on the song and give clear helpful and always positive helpful reviews....

Bloody hell guys!! I am not happy right now.

[S.T.C]

I was sticking up for you  
Although it sounds critical ,i didn`t comment on your voice before,,,it is was it is!
I was only making the point ,that the song would benefit form a vocalist that could bring out the best...the main criticism is your use of oldy worldly language..which doesn`t bother me.   
 

[James Nighthawk]

I have calmed down a little now. For the record. It seems that every song I post I am told (by some, not all by any means) that I am singing with an affected voice. I don't. I sing the way it comes out.

I shouldn't get annoyed as many on here have been very nice about my voice.

Voices are a personal thing. That is fine. Dislike it, fine!!

 I love bjork. Alanis. Tori amos. I can guarentee that more people dislike those singers than like them. This is cool. But please, please stop accusing me of using a put on voice. It is starting to upset me. Clearly.

I am sat here with my mum (playing nurse back home as she has had a minor op recently). She has been reading this on my iPad. She says they just need to hear you speak/sing in person, and she would know, surely?

Anyway. Calm. Calm...

[andy5544]

Hey James , don't take it to heart , even if you were putting on a singing voice .. and i dont think for one minute that you are ,but even if you were, there's loads of singers that dont sing the same as they talk , take Mick Jagger , does he come from the southern states of the usa?
susan boyle ? say no more 
Also from the way you write on the forum i can tell you're a bit posh , so if you sing a bit posh that would make sense ,and thats your style ...people can take it or leave it .
your guitar playing is very nifty and you know your stuff , sometimes over opinions you just have to agree to disagree .
"hello" to your mum ,wish her a speedy recovery 

[James Nighthawk]

Thanks andy. That is very kind and she is mending well. We are hardy stock.

I am worked to the bone at the moment so yeah I probably need a long sleep.

I am rather well spoken and dragged-up-proper. It is annoying when the same thing is thrown at me, it was clearly at a tipping point.

And no one sings how they talk. Otherwise there would be a lot of very monotonous singers, or over lilting speakers going around! 

Zzzz time now!

[Schavuitje]

Did your mum also read the bit about you skillfully deflecting all critisism's and never admitting that you could be
wrong about anything that is yours?  Sorry couldn't resist.
I really do think that that is what sometimes gets up peoples noses... and then you just have the voice to suit 
Anyway chill out good man  Just remember that there are a lot of talented people here besides you 
And I'd rather listen to a lot of the badly recorded songs by people who hit bum notes with feeling and passion,
than someone who sounds the opposite but is great at producing, wouldn't you?
Come on cheer up mate. 
Wish your mum well and give her a big hug. 

[Boydie]

"And I'd rather listen to a lot of the badly recorded songs by people who hit bum notes with feeling and passion,"

I agree with this statement 100% which is why I am finding this latest discussion a bit bizarre and confusing 

I thought JAMES' vocal on this track was full of emotion and passion - not just a simple "on pitch" performance, which I am sure JAMES could do standing on his head ( or at least achieve with autotune      )

The fact that there was a real "performance" of the lyrics was a real plus point for me - there is many a good song on here thst would be great if the vocal "acted out" the lyric

In the context of 1 song I can kind of understand why some might find the mix of the flowery language ( we must find a better term), unusual time signature, almost medieval feel and vocal performance a bit "forced" especially alongside the more mainstream poppy/rocky stuff that has been posted recently (which I also think has been of a particularly high quality over last 2 weeks or so - well done everyone!)

However, JAMES was clear from the outset thst this was a "scene setter" on an album and I think he has achieved this perfectly for his particular style of music

This whole discussion has intrigued me and I can't wait for the album to be released