[tone]

Hey all

Following the near-departure of some of the longest-standing members, and some of the best contributors, it's come to my attention that there's a lot of discontent on this forum that I don't get to hear about.

Fear of rocking the boat, or resignation to the idea that I'm incapable of change have played their part it seems.

But I'm not allergic to change - and I don't want members to feel pushed out because they feel I'm not behind them. I can't promise to agree with everyone, but I need a true concensus of your feelings about the way this place is run so I can decide where to go from here.

So for now, forget everything I've said about how I want to run this forum. It's open season on Tone. Please speak clearly and candidly. Post on this thread or PM me - either is fine.

Thank you

[Songsmith]

Hiya mate,

basically for me it is what I have said on latest postings, I am just getting really pissed off with people that do not integrate, that alone makes a forum just ridiculous. As I have been on here a little while now & I don't regard that as giving me any seniority over anyone!!! the more people that review your work the healthier it is for all!!!

It is a difficult one to sort out & it will have to be a compromise of some sort but anything to improve the situation would be a positive. I am not in favour of any form of ruling with a big stick but a few gentle ground rules would be nice & as has been said, a reminder by the likes of yourself to tow the line if people don't contribute.

Cheers for now!!!

[domj]

A while back i was a member of a forum, they had a rule where you had to review at least 3 songs before you posted your own. If they did not, their post was locked with an explanation, often they were given a warning beforehand though. It worked quite well and it was a forum that i learnt how to play guitar and write songs on. But it would be quite time intensive on the mods part.
It sorted out the selfish spammers from the people who wanted to be part of a community.
It changed though and was lost to spammers and all the good members left.

[Kafla]

The forum has worked fine for a long while, longer than I have been on it.

The aggression recently has been unacceptable,  It's got to the stage where I am afraid to review anyone as I don't want to be against the 'old guard ' but agree with a lot that the 'old guard ' stand for

This is getting ridiculous - WTF is the 'old guard ' - is this an Internet forum or a secret society

Is this about music or what?  MUSIC!

You should be able to review what you like when you like if you like it.

I have enough stress in my life without worrying or justifying what I do on here

There has been an abundance of takers on here recently but a lot of you have let yourselfs down with your aggression - its ugly honest and totally uncalled for

90% of the chat has been about this nonsense instead of the MUSIC!

Have a pop at me if it makes you feel better

Read a thread last night about someone who wrote a song about his mother whohas Alzheimer's and he gets redirected to the forum rules - still cant believe that

Let me say that again - his mother had alzheimers but he should read the guidelines 

It's went to far

[bewarethisboy]

I am really new to this society. But I have to say I love it. There are a group of really nice people here and they are happy to give their time to help others myself included to improve what they are trying to do which is write some tunes that some other people might like to listen to. Firstly I have to thank Tone for providing that platform. It is a shame that in society there are givers and takers. And on this forum sometimes (in the very limited time I have been here) there have been a few visitors who basically think they are better than anyone else and who post a lot of finished songs and then do not join in with making the forum work and that is sad. But generally I have to say that you all have something really special here. You contributors know who you are and I for one respect and admire your experience and am grateful for the advice and encouragement that you give. Leaving now would make the forum a weaker place and would mean that those selfish few who won’t be here next week will have succeeded all be it inadvertently in ruining a really great forum. I hope that does not happen. Having said all of that Tone - I don’t think it is your fault and I am really sorry you are getting grief because you don’t deserve it. BTB

[James Nighthawk]

My views as stands:

The forum has changed recently. More people than ever, and many don't use it correctly, as per the very balanced and fair terms of usage issued by Tone.

Instead of posting once or twice a month and spending the rest of time involving themselves with other people's songs,  they post many times in one week and either don't engage at all or do a few cursory, short reviews to give the appearance of sharing. And yet they DO have time to come back and post on their own threads bumping them up and others down. GRR!

The terms change recently is good. I also offer the following ideas:

-A welcome email sent to all new members explaining clearly but in a friendly manner how to use the forum in a fair and sharing way .

-We can then refer offenders to the terms should they still post without sharing/post too often. Benefit of the doubt to all newbies is only fair!

-A "report" button that alerts Tone to people that are being unsharing. This means that instead of boosting a thread that is taking the piss up to the top of forum, we can quietly report them and let them slide.  

-Perhaps if people post more than one song a week Tone can lock and hide the thread, inform the forum member why it has happened, and then it can be unlocked after one week and returned to the forum (I have no idea if this is a coding nightmare, not trying to make work for you Tone!). If this is a pain to code in, the thread could just be removed, the poster informed, and they can then re-enter the post after a week themselves.

-Code in something in the review forum only allowing one new thread a week? If you have just recorded a bunch of new songs, a little patience couldn't hurt surely?

-All the above is for the "Reviews" forum only. I don't think the Lyrics or other sections suffer so much for greedy posters. Correct me if I am wrong  

[Boydie]

First of all I think we should all remember what it was like when we first posted our songs

We were excited, we wanted the world to hear (and love!) our efforts, we were probably nervous and waited before posting, we felt that sense of exhilaration when we hit the submit button and checked (and rechecked!) the webpage for any feedback - almost immediately!

If we had read the rules we probably knew that we should review and critique other people's songs - but we may have thought “who am I to review ###### they have posted numerous songs and they are all awesome”

It can be intimidating

There have been a few people recently that have been perceived as "takers" that have pissed a few people off - the ones that annoy me are the ones that publish very "polished" final versions of their masterpieces that we should be grateful to have the opportunity to hear!

As for what to do, here is how I would manage it:

1 – review the guidelines and draw out some hard and fast RULES

e.g.

 - Only 1 song may be posted per week

 - A meaningful review of at least 3 songs must be made for every song posted

2 – I think JAMES’ idea of a welcome email with the rules is a great one

3 – a team of Moderators be selected to “police” the rules – but with a carrot not a stick

By this I mean locking the offenders review thread with something like:

“Hi #####, it appears that you have not reviewed any songs yet. It is a core principle around here to review others before posting songs for review. Please review other members’ songs and I will re-open this thread to allow you to participate fully in the forum. I am sure you will appreciate the reason for this and we look forward to having you as a valuable member of this forum”

The “good uns” will instantly review others and get involved – the bad ones will not receive reviews as their thread will be locked, which will re-establish the sense of “fair play”

The Moderators would then have their own forum to discuss members away from the public forums, which will allow a consistent response – e.g. “does everyone think that ##### is not giving proper reviews, shall I contact them to show them what a review should contain?”

I disagree with KAFLA’s point above as I thought JAMES provided the perfect example of how to deal with a situation like this

JAMES posted a reminder about the guidelines, the poster “got it”, obviously thought about it and then posted an apology - I am sure he will remain a valuable member now he know the score

It doesn’t matter what the content of the song was about, JAMES was polite in letting him know

I do however completely agree with KAFLA that this is all a bit ridiculous when you take a deep breath and strip the emotion away

This is forum is about music and songwriting

Some people are getting carried away and posting without reviewing – as I said in another post this is hardly crime of the century

We should nurture and re-educate these new members, whilst concentrating on the music, as this is how the forum will grow

I am guessing the forum has grown rapidly recently (as I said I am a newbie) so presumably there is a bit of a culture change going on for the “old guard”, moving from an almost exclusive club with limited numbers where everyone knows each other to a much larger entity

This is quite a large change to manage and it is only to be expected that some will not like this change and move on

There is always a danger of “cliques” forming in these situations but I must say I have found everybody welcoming and constructive so I do not see this being an issue in the long-term

For me the establishment of clear rules and the selection of some moderators (especially if they are chosen from the “Old Guard” that understand how the forum works and its values) will fix things

I will support whatever TONE decides as this is by far the best songwriting forum with the best people so whatever happens it is all good!

[Schavuitje]

Iv'e been asked to participate in this thread and I think it's a good idea that it is no holes barred.

First of all Tone I want to applaud you on ever getting this forum up in the first place. It truly is a great place.
I did go away for a while once and it took me a while to realise how much I love this place and how much I missed it.

I certainly haven't out-grown the forums. I love the place and want nothing more than to be a part of it. I love the people here,
well some of them  and I love the help and support that they give not only to myself but to everyone. I value these people and their
friendship.
The problem, or at least as I see it, is that there are some members who dissagree with our policy of "give and take".
Now there is nothing wrong with dissagreeing with something, of course. But going pusposefully against the grain of what the majority wants the
forums to be is another matter.
I'll explain: In the past it has worked very well that members who abused the forums by being selfish and contributing nothing, whilst at the same time
looking for help and advice and support, just got ignored eventually when people cottoned on to what they were doing.
Usually they were gently reminded that this was not a fair way to behave and they either took the advice and became much valued members of the forum or they
didn't and dissapeared. This is your way Tone and it is a good way. I really quite admire the way you hand over so much control to the forum members and allow things to evolve.
It says a lot about who you are that you allow that freedom
However, although this has worked fine for ages it is beginning to fail.
Why?
Because there's a number of newer members here who don't agree with you or me or Flossie or Nooms or Kaf or DB or Songsmith or James, or Tina...(Sorry if I missed you out 
There are many more great members than this ) Since they joined they have refused to give any credence to our gripes about this subject. Instead of posting a link to forum rules or
even reminding the "poster" about forum ettiquette, they give a review. They do it because they know it is against the grain of what most of us believe in here. We do remind people not to be selfish... we do encourage people to integrate and give as well as take.
Sjoerd is a persistant repeat offender. He contributes shit to the forums. Only pops his head in when HE wants some attention. That need not be such an issue if he was ignored. People
would be happy to see that someone so selfish is not being given the time that he doesn't deserve. But these guys keep on reviewing regardless of how someone behaves.

This is what is causing friction and why some people are immediately losing their tempers with people like Sjoerd. Before we would all be happy to give a gentle reminder.Now we feel we have to say it more strongly because regardless of how he bahaves he WILL get his reviews.
He won't learn. He won't integrate. He won't give... but he will keep on getting. The old system won't work unless we are all united in our policy of what to do when it is noticed that
a member behaves in this selfish manner.
If we all ignored, then I'm sure everyone would be happy to see selfishness slip down the page and the gentle nudges instead of attacks would return.
If the newer members who seem determined to disrupt this place won't agree to the guidlines and rules that we and you Tone, believe in then I don't really know what they are doing here?
It seems very rude to me, to join a forum and then pretty much immediately go against the grain and what seems to have worked for so very long.
I would love to keep doing it your way Tone because I like your way It is just impossible now because only some people are actually following the guidlines and rules.
The only way I can see it working is if people who are known, or discovered to be repeat offenders - In other words they haven't taken the friendly advice of actually joining in and giving as well
as taking but continue to abuse. They've had fair and friendly warning - are either banned OR when it is brought to the attention of yourself by a member of the forums. That their post gets locked, so that the people on here who DO post on these threads and therefore refuse to back the rest of us up in trying to get people to bahave more socially and less selfishly. can't give reviews and therefore undermine the rest of us who try to get this message across.
 

[James Nighthawk]

@KAFLA

I take that personally and I am quite upset by that!!!

Yes. I politely referred the chap to the forum rules. This was after posting kind and helpful reviews on two of his songs in two days. He was posting too often and had three posts in the top five.

I DID NOT READ HIS POST because of this.

The content of the post was irrelevant to what I was saying - my point stands. And furthermore I was entirely polite and following exactly what Tone had suggested we should do in such circumstances.

AND the poster apologised.


I post almost daily. I post careful and considered reviews. I like this place and the community on here. BUT I am becoming cheesed off by the takers on here. And Now I am being attacked for politely nudging someone towards polite behaviour.

No. Just no.

I am a kind a liberal person.  But I understand that any community needs rules otherwise it will fall to pieces. Lets take the police of the street shall we? A few basic rules, enforced with balance and care, make for a better place, physical or virtual.

That is what this thread is about. As the forum grows, and it should grow, it will need to have a its systems tweaked every so often so it doesn't lose the loving community ethos that we all come here for.

This forum may have worked for a long time, but it is clearly in a funny adolescence period right now. A small community can be controlled with kindliness and everyone looking out for each other. A larger community may need stricter controls...

[James Nighthawk]

@Boydie
Thanks for backing me up And good points made in general

This IS the best forum of the type out there. I am pretty sure of that. THAT IS WHY we defend it so!

@Schav

STAY!! WEATHER the storm

[Boydie]

There does seem to be a consensus developing

I think JAMES has hit the nail on the head here:

This forum may have worked for a long time, but it is clearly in a funny adolescence period right now

The forum is definitely in its "Kevin & Perry" stage

A bit of strong parenting from TONE will put it all right - there is light at the end of the tunnel (and I am pretty sure it is not another train coming in the other direction!!!)

[nooms]

hi folks
i would subscribe to this forum which is saying something as i work for the nhs for a bowl of rice and as many biscuits..

i dont hold tone responsible for other folks selfishness, i like the open plan. i hold tone responsible for getting me back on track.  I think we need a constant supply of fresh air, keeps things moving along, some of them hang around and get involved, most of them disappear.
 
its a bit like road rage, screen rage.  'who the phuck do they think they are ? '  has echoed round this flat regular but you ignore them or you go to war and i aint got time for that, waste of energy, means bad karma and all the fun of driving is policed like singapore..and this forum would be a very different place, elitist exclusive and stagnant.
Its a great creative place and for many of us almost a stage, and i value its evolving nature.
Its success could be seen as the problem, immigration,  but do we really want border controls.. ?

i try and ignore obvious chancers and they always, always disapear off the radar and bomb some other village..
And lets face it there has been some pretty amazing music from some very driven people that just flew in & flew out and youd be blind if you thought they were going to hang around, the ambition and drive is evident in their text and we have,  or i have anyway, benefitted from them, like meeting someone interesting, sod the suit, its whats in their bag, what their ideas are,..
Others are often silly and naive, i'll comment the first time, why not ? and if subsequently they dont embrace a common sense system, ie: normal social ettiquette then i wont comment further, they dont notice me anyway and soon theyre off again...these characters are part of life, we write about these characters everyday because the angles and shapes they throw at us are our inspiration,....bit over the top there.. got carried away...it was going so well...

There is arrogance in bucketloads, especially media stuff, and sadly but naturally its often what propels people to the 'top', gets noticed, gets things done, its a bastard but a fact of life, they exist.
Where would the gallaghers be without it, i quite like Noel but all Liams actually got is attitude, winds me up chronic but theres a good side, most of us arent like him..

[andy5544]

hi, i think i'm one of the offenders by posting a review on sjiords post , i thought it was sorted with him cuz he said he would leave and everyone said no no stay ,so i thought it was ok.
Then there was Florida mikes song , he said he got it then apologised , and has been  reviewing everyone else , i think he's a good sort and would be a good forum member now he gets the gist of it . So i apologise and i wasn't trying to go against the grain in any way.

as for rules ,as others have said ,insist on a minimum 3 reviews per post , and it's in all the decent members interest to report offenders .
also you cant post a new song till your last one has dropped of the first page . 

[tone]

Brilliant, and candid replies so far. Thank you.

Remember, it's open season on Tone, so if you need to discuss other members' behaviour, it's probably best to PM me.

Hope to hear more opinions very soon.

[estreet]

I agree that the situation of someone joining and posting several songs straight off is annoying - but less so than that of people who have been members a long time but only drop in to promote their own stuff - newcomers can be forgiven. I actually made a fuss about this back in February and Sjorde was one of the people I complained about then - so he obviously took no notice. The saddest downside of all this is that it's the people who are not the guilty parties who are arguing and falling out over it - the offenders usually take no notice or disappear never to be seen again: a few see their mistake and put it right.

I think James' suggestion of a welcome e-mail clearly stating the guidelines is an excellent one. Also, if anyone posts more than one song in a day (or three days or whatever) then the others get removed and they get told why. For now, I say keep the self-policing approach to tardy reviewers - but let people rebuke them if they are posting a lot of their own songs whilst ignoring others. The limit on weekly posting limits will help anyhow - and I can't see that you can really eject a forums members just for not posting often enough.

My suggestion would be to do just those two things and see if things improve - if not, then maybe sterner measures are required.