[Dutchbeat]

just making music is the point!

and whether you call it

making music
or music making

doesn't make a difference

[hofnerite]

this debate about old and new music has been around forever. My view is that you should write a good song. If it is good, you could produce it in any way you like, classical production, modern production.

I know people on here are very opinionated about the songwriting skills of Noel gallagher but I bought a CD of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra playing the songs of Oasis and was very impressed that some of the older Oasis songs could sound so timeless. Shows how if you have a good song to start with, it's what you do with it that counts. You can't polish a turd.

[The Corsair]

Indeed, you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter, which I guess is what pop music is...

[tina m]

Indeed, you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter, which I guess is what pop music is...

i can remember when pop music was awesome but i was young then  so its hard to  be realy objective about modern pop & not just act superior & say its total crap

anyway to the main question ...whats the point?
i think this a lot ......but i know that life is frustrating & mundane & life crushes you.... & my music is my way of saying something & making a noise & expressing myself...its realy like therapy & it almost makes me feel special that i am able to say something original & stand out from the crowd who just consume & use & arent capable of creating
& the other thing is  i have to do it...... if i dont i feel empty & lost & worthless...........it seems to make life have more meaning to me

[Schavuitje]

I agree with you Tone completely.

More and more people are looking outside of the "pop charts".

It's so easy these days to go on sites like youtube, myspace and so on and surf for

music you would never have heard... and THAT is forcing some artists who were not getting a break

to get up there. And it's not all r&b rap techno dance jibberish either.

Plus you've got great bands like Elbow who's music certainly doesn't fit neatly into what you would

expect to typically hear in the pop charts.

There are so many artists who are poplular enough to be very well known and followed without making

it into the pop charts. There are other charts too!

The thing is if your music is real and it has your soul in it, and it's good, it won't really matter in which genre

it sits. People will like it.

I like to make music that is real to me, real to what turns me on in music. If I can stay with that rather than forcing myself to

write music that I certainly could write (and have) but which would be empty, then maybe people will hear the music has soul

and like it. I wouldn't give two hoots if they liked the one I wrote with no soul.

And don't forget that music is always going around in cycles, things come in and out of fashion just as they do with clothes.

Beck ventured into just about every style concievable (often many of them in one song  ) and he's a genius.

Right that's it, have had enough  Off to the back door for a ciggie 

[Ramshackles]

I hear what you're saying songsthatcry, but not all of us want to appeal to 10 year olds. Personally I'm of the opinion that good songwriting is never old hat. Production styles come and go like hairstyles, but good songwriting remains good songwriting.

Also, most of us are in the same boat as you: we don't have heaps of cash to throw at our music projects, so most of them end up as solo projects where we do nearly everything.

The problem with thinking up "something that today's market will want" is that by the time you get anywhere with it, the market will have moved on. I find this a very cynical approach to making music, and one that's destined to produce music that lacks the most important ingredient (for me): authenticity.

The more artists that play to 'the market' (which lets face it is wholly dictated by CEOs and execs who know little about music and a lot about marketing) the longer this dry spell in pop music is going to continue.

A case in point. Listen to Gotye's somebody you used to know song and compare it to Rihanna's new song. The former has energy, sparkle, originality, melody, imagination. Rihanna is predictable, insipid, repetitive and more than a little boring.

Interestingly, Gotyes song is based around a sample of 'Seville' by Luiz Bonfa....Im sure this fits into your point somehow

IMO, writing 'for the market' is a pointless exercise unless you are an established musician, and even then it is only for those with little integrity/love for music.
There are plenty of easier ways to make money. Perhaps it's because of the perceived glamour of the industry or something but there is always a misconception that once you have 'made it', it's an easy job.

Start with a love of music and write songs you want to hear.

[Mr.Chainsaw]

Start with a love of music and write songs you want to hear.

I don't understand how people can write songs they don't love, you know? If you're gonna sit in a room and play it a thousand times to your self, just to get it right, you've got to love it or you'd go mad.

Or you're a masochist

Peter

[tone]

Start with a love of music and write songs you want to hear.

Amen

[hofnerite]

Start with a love of music and write songs you want to hear.

I don't understand how people can write songs they don't love, you know? If you're gonna sit in a room and play it a thousand times to your self, just to get it right, you've got to love it or you'd go mad.

Or you're a masochist

Peter

If you are a professional songwriter though, you may need to write pieces that you may not entirely enjoy. Do all songwriters consider all of their songs to be masterpieces? No. There's a real divide on here between people wanting to write for themselves and those who want to write for others.
I consider myself a songwriter but I am not writing for myself. I am writing because I want others to use my music. Therefore I need to tailor my songs to fit the end artist and therefore I begin at a different starting point to (it appears) anyone on this board.

[Schavuitje]

hehe. No, I completely understand your reasoning and ambition. About three years ago I thought the same thing.

I realised that it is very unlikely that I would ever be at the point where I would have the courage to go out

and perform my songs, so why not write songs that others would use. That inevitably made me think of writing popular songs.

Listening continuously to the top 40. Listening to what was new, what kind of synth sounds were fashionable and really

analyzing the pop charts.

There was a few things worng with that though -  I don't like most of what's in the charts. And although "theoretically" they

are mostly simple songs. And quite easy to imitate without copying... To get the same sounds synth- wise, beat- wise and generally production- wise... especially on vocals,

is very hard and will cost a lot of money trying to keep up.

There are people who sit and churn out songs that mean absolutely nothing to them like they are sat on a factory production line. These are

usually knowledgable musicians who can keep repeating the same magic formular over and over. But the music is empty and soulless. Which is why

I rarely like what's in the charts.

If your music ( whether it sounds 70's 80's or whatever ) is good and has a vibe that people can catch and attach to you're onto a winner


Well that's my thoughts anyway 

[hofnerite]

You don't have to like what is in the charts or try to write something like that. The charts nowadays mean nothing. The UK charts appear to be aimed at/funded by pseudo-black 13 year olds. there is a big difference between what is in the current charts and what people over the age of 13 will pay for and attend gigs by.

At the moment I am focussed on writing songs that are comparable to those sung by Adele, Katie Melua, Alicia keys, Elbow, Ron Sexsmith etc. These lot sell a bunch of records, probably more than the fleeting pop/R&B/crap in the charts actually. Luckily we still have a good live circuit in this country but I have never seen a pub playling live R&B or pop... It's all guitar/keys and melodies.

As I said in an earlier thread, if you write traditional songs that sound great on one instrument, it can probably be produced in a million different ways according to the market into which you'd like the song placed. Don't bend over backwards to recreate a genre just to make money. Write what you enjoy and find a market for it. There are lots of amateur bands in this country that would love decent original songs to use to help them climb the ladder. There is work out there for the amateur songwriter.

[Sonic-r]

If you are a professional songwriter though, you may need to write pieces that you may not entirely enjoy. Do all songwriters consider all of their songs to be masterpieces? No. There's a real divide on here between people wanting to write for themselves and those who want to write for others.
I consider myself a songwriter but I am not writing for myself. I am writing because I want others to use my music. Therefore I need to tailor my songs to fit the end artist and therefore I begin at a different starting point to (it appears) anyone on this board.

You're possibly one of two actually. It was never my intention to be the artist when I started making music about three years ago. It was March last year that I decided there's no law against me becoming a professional songwriter and like you I've been studying how this industry works in order to give myself a fighting chance.

The only music I've put off limits to myself is music that comes from a culture or lifestyle that I've no experience of. I've no intention to emulate Plan B for example, or write for a teenage market (the kind of charts stuff that's getting a good kicking in this thread). But there's no chance of that anyway because your modern commercial pop is written like an American sitcom: teams of writer-producers like Xenomania, churning it out on a commissioned industrial scale.

But to return to the theme of the thread: what's the point? For me the point is hearing my own music and thinking I like that (the same feeling you get when an artist you like does something you enjoy.) I write the kind of music I like to listen to and some of it will probably never be performed by another artist -the DnB stuff for example- but there's synchronisation. Your music could be the soundtrack for the next Iron Man/Out of Africa/Prospero's Books* film (*Delete according to preference!)

It is frustrating not to get some feedback from strangers, but then the flipside is that strangers might tell it like it is. And we might not like what we hear.

Chris

[hofnerite]

  Xenophobia! (not sure is that was intentional or not!) 

[Sonic-r]

Just corrected it before I read your post. I was sitting here and thought 'hang on, it's mania, not phobia!! 

[Ramshackles]

If you are a professional songwriter though, you may need to write pieces that you may not entirely enjoy. Do all songwriters consider all of their songs to be masterpieces? No. There's a real divide on here between people wanting to write for themselves and those who want to write for others.
I consider myself a songwriter but I am not writing for myself. I am writing because I want others to use my music. Therefore I need to tailor my songs to fit the end artist and therefore I begin at a different starting point to (it appears) anyone on this board.

I dont know...in interviews with my favourite bands, they always say something along the lines of 'we dont really pay attention to other people...we just want to write what makes us happy'.
John Lennon said the beatles were just 'some guys playing rock n roll music'....and if they were only tailoring music 'for the market', their style would've never changed past 1963

Goes back to the point that Tone made about authenticity. If you are writing a song in a certain style, just because thats the current market but someone else is writing a song in that style but because he loves it and thats his natural way of writing, who will come up with the better song, which song will be more authentic?
Even for those on this forum that are trying to make something of their music, I'd say just continue to write what you feel is good and interesting. And listen to as much music as possible inbetween