The Learning Curve

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Sterix

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« on: October 17, 2021, 02:18:07 PM »
So, a lot of you will know that I've been writing the lyrics (or trying to!) for a band who discovered me on this very forum. It's been a long, arduous and oft-times tortuous process but I can happily reveal that I'm now pretty much done with my part as the boys are in the studio now (I believe they'll be laying down vocals this very week). I've just sent off the latest (hopefully last) draft of the final song I was working on (more about one that later) so I thought I'd share (some of, at least) my journey/

It's been nothing if not a fascinating experience - I feel like I've learned so much about song writing and yet still merely scratched the surface. And, of course, I am aware that this experience is likely to be different depending on who you are writing for. With this band (The Grassland Sinners) the singer wanted a lot of freedom vocally which meant occasionally drifting away (sometimes quite a lot) from a structure (so verse two may be sung slightly differently to verse one, and even chorus may alter slightly the second time around).

I have to admit I would have preferred a stricter structure (try saying that with false teeth!) but I'm just the lackey doing the best I can with the requirements at hand.

It all started back in 2018 when Jacin, the new lead singer of the band, PMd me here asking if I was interested in helping them to write the lyrics for their second album. It's never been discussed but I presume the previous holder of this position was one of the ones who had left the band. Of course, I was interested! But, also, this wasn't the first band to ask me and that had not gone that well (I'd written lyrics for five of their songs but then never heard a thing again - I've kept an eye on them on a tad since just to make sure they didn't filch my lyrics - I would have been somewhat peeved and not a little vindictive if they'd have done so).

We swapped numbers and started chatting on WhatsApp. Firstly, he told me a little of the band and what they were looking for. He was very honest on the monetary front and we got that out of the way - I wasn't interested (still aren't) in receiving in any money (well, not unless they go platinum or something!) - I was purely in it for the challenge and the ego. Just to be able to say "those are MY words on that song" and for people to be able to hear them; that's something money can't buy. Even now it gives me chills to think that shortly that will happen...

Looking back to how I tackled the earlier songs to the later ones, there's a definite difference to how I/we approached them. First song aside - which used already-written lyrics I'd posted at the forum and was really just a case of rearranging/rewriting them to fit better - the earlier songs I had more input into the vocal melody (I'd get sent the instrumental only) but I found this a little problematic when it came to progressing those songs with regards to Jacin's vocal style. It often involved re-writing large chunks of the lyrics (sometimes completely) until we'd got the structure somewhat nailed.

After a few songs we decided (possibly more me suggesting but my memory isn't totally reliable) that the best thing would be for Jacin to send me two versions of the first song - one instrumental and one with Jacin singing random words (I sent him a small bunch of my lyrics and he used lines from some of these - often a mix of them). This made it easier for me to get the gist of how he saw the melody line and meant I had something tangible to aim for.

What was constant across all of these songs was the back-and-forth.

Jacin would send the music over and, once I was in the mood, I'd listen to it/them a couple of times. This would allow me to get a sense of the song and think about what I wanted to aim for lyrically (I had pretty much carte blanche on subject matter).

Then I'd get down to the writing.

Let me just say now that writing for myself is TONNES easier. For one thing, I only have to impress myself, and for another - I can hear it in my head whilst I'm writing so I have a better sense of what works or not when they're sung. I have no such luxury here. These are words that will actually go out there and be heard. I need them to be good. Actually, I need them to be better than good. If possible, I need them to be inspired. This is possibly my one-and-only-chance to be noticed outside of forum, family and friends (and only the first of those has really taken any interest). I suppose I'm hoping that maybe someone will hear one of these songs, really listen to the lyrics and think "wow, I'd love for this guy to write something for me" - well, we can all dream, can't we?).

Back to the writing...

Most of the lyrics I post on the forum are actually first drafts and written in less than half-an-hour. The words come free and easy to me (most of the time). But here, I can spend HOURS on them. And, contrary to how I normally write (sequentially), I can be all over the place within it, slowly crafting a coherent "storyline" out of the random chaos. This meant I'd end up re-writing lines several times as I worked to make it all make sense. The number of times I had to discard a killer line because I just couldn't make it fit with the rest of the song is heart-breaking! But sacrifices needed to be made...

Finally, I'd have something to send to Jacin for him to work with. In the earlier versions I'd also send a mp3 with me singing (I don't have anywhere near Jacin's range so these must have assaulted his ears at times) but I didn't need to do that with the later ones where he already knew the melody he wanted. The one thing that was constant was that I time stamped each section to his track.

Then I'd wait. Nervously. I swear I'd poop myself every time I saw he'd left a voicemail on WhatsApp afterwards. I would convince myself that he would hate the lyrics for this one and the bubble would burst. It's not that I couldn't handle it, I'd just feel like I'd let him down.

It never really happened this way - though I ended up writing one song with three different sets of lyrics but this was felt needed something more if possible (challenge accepted!).

Anyway, he'd come back with his thoughts - what he liked, what he felt didn't (quite) work, "could I change this part because I'm struggling to sing it", etc. He'd either send back a new track (usually a mixture of my lyrics and his changes) or that would follow later if he didn't have time to record it.

I'd then listen to the new track and begin touching up the lyrics. A lot of the time he'd approach the vocals slightly differently and this could change the length of certain lines. Sometimes this meant only minor changes - others required bigger changes (it was amazing how sometimes changing one line had a major knock-on effect on the rest of the song and I almost had to butcher the entire thing to get it back into shape again). I'd also listen to the parts where he had managed to sing my lyrics to see how "comfortable" he seemed singing them. Occasionally I'd work on those too. I had to keep in the forefront of my mind at all times - I wasn't writing for my vocal talents but Jacin's. And I also have to remember that English isn't his first language (despite how good it is) so I have to make sure I don't over-complicate things for him.

Back to Jacin for him to look over the changes, see if they work for him, etc.

This might happen a couple of times more before we're both finally satisfied with things as they are.

After a while, the next song would appear and I'd be back to the grindstone.

Finally, we had all the songs to the pre-production stage. There will be 12 songs in total (at least on the special Kickstarter version - 10 for the normal version). Of those, I've written 10 and touched up another written by one of the band members. The last one I had no part in whatsoever and you can find that song on YouTube (it's called Another Flavor).

Now we come to the production stage. They hired a producer and hit the studio.

And that meant some songs suddenly got rearranged.

Also, Jacin wanted me to look at one song in particular and re-write it somewhat to reflect a documentary he'd watch and had moved him. The original lyrics were about mankind screwing up the world but now he was hoping to make it a song about the Chernobyl accident. I could reuse a lot of the imagery I'd already conjured up but by God this re-write gave me nightmares and severely stressed me out.

The other songs were actually quite easy to polish off (even where the structure changed, I was able to move things around en masse without doing any damage to the storylines) but this one particular song...

They're looking to make it the next video and do a few special things with it (don't want to say much about that). I've got it down (I think!) to one line in the chorus that I've been trying to conjure up that pleases both myself and (more importantly) Jacin. He's asked for something really powerful message-wise - which isn't easy in so few words.

I wouldn't be lying if I said I've probably spent over SIX HOURS on this one line alone. I was still banging my head against it at 4am this morning... it's almost consuming me!

I've finally sent off my latest (hopefully last) attempt. I've actually given him about 8 alternatives of varying "strengths". I'm just not sure which is best, if any. Time is running out to get this right. I've poured my heart and soul into this one and I want to know that I gave it my best shot.

And that's where we're at.

I'm on tenterhooks waiting for Jacin's to let me know the outcome and if I'm needed for anything else (I was also helping out with pronunciation at one stage) or if I'm finally done with this particular album (we're still only halfway through writing for Jacin's other band).

My thoughts?

It's been an eye-opening experience for sure. Believe it or not, it's taken a toll on my mental health somewhat (had a nervous breakdown about 15 years ago so suffer the consequences to this day). But I wouldn't exchange the experience for the world. So, it gave me any number of panic attacks - I'll get those pretty much whatever I'm doing - but I get those anyway and the outcome will more than make up for them.

Like I said earlier; I've learned a lot. A damn lot. You're never too old to learn new tricks...

Would I do it again (on this scale)? I would be remiss if I didn't say there have been times doing this I haven't asked myself this question (usually during one of those bloody panic attacks!) and I've wondered could I handle/is it worth the stress. It would be easy to say "I've done it now, move on to something a little less stressful" but another part of me (that bloody ego!) whispers, "The world needs your words..."

I'm pretty sure that if I got asked... I just couldn't say no.

Of course, I'd approach it differently next time. I can see where I was (probably still am) making mistakes or making life more difficult for myself. Hopefully I'd have the confidence to make these adjustments to my collaborative efforts.

In the meantime, I'm going to wind down and destress a little. I'll still write the occasional song or two as the mood takes me but I'm planning to chill out on my PS4 and take my beloved Broncos to another Superbowl win again...

Hopefully, batteries recharged, I'll get more active in the forum again. I peruse it even and listen to the occasional song when I'm not posting so I'm never not really away.

Sorry for the novel... but it's rare I'll get a chance to post in the more technical areas of this forum and actually have something to say so I'm making the most of it!

cowparsleyman

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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2021, 05:42:27 PM »
@Sterix - Broncos man o man wasn’t John Elway Broncos QB? Can barely remember.I used to be the skins then 49ers, then Eagles but never the Cowboys…

Very interesting read, very revealing how a lyricist works, It’s rare that the words aren’t mine, as The lin k between words and music are so interwoven that the music would be different, can’t describe it but the words have a profound influence on what happens musically, sometimes it’s the rhythm of the words that determines the music and vice versa…in the same song.

Why does Jacin not write his own lyrics, is it that you say what he can’t, or is he too busy on music ..

You do write very good lyrics, and so prolific.

6hrs on one line, must be a long line, or do you have to rhyme with Antibiotics or pseudotrachae…

I wish you only plenty of success with this project…let us know when it’s released.

I’ll be watching for the album credits…


Boydie

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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2021, 08:03:53 AM »
@Sterix

Great write up and a good example of the difference between “writing for the art” and writing commercially/for someone else

I completely agree with your comments about the structure of the songs - I really hope their producer has steered them towards more disciplined sctrucutres if they are aiming their material commercially

If you haven’t already, I would recommend the resources from Jason Blume and Ralph Murphy (RIP) to sharpen up your commercial chops

Keep at it - sounds like there is at least a shot of something with this project, fingers and toes are crossed for you
To check out my music please visit:

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PeteS

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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2021, 10:31:41 AM »
@Sterix That's really interesting read.  Most of you know that I don't write lyrics I leave that to Neil, so some of the experiences you have written about are very similar but the time you have spent on them is incredible.  Neil sends me lyrics and some I immediately take a dislike to, might be the topic or maybe just some of the words.  Similar to your experience, he has no idea what I am going to do with them so when I start composing, I usually need to rewrite the lines to fit what I have some up with, he then edits where he sees fit.  We don't agree on everything but fortunately, he usually gives me the final say as I am the one who has to sing them.  I would like to see how it would work if we had a real band with other members all contributing.  I heard an interview with Mark Cope from the Candyskins (a lesser known britpop band but probably my personal favourite) where he said something like three of them went through the lyrics so it was never a matter of just 2 opinions, the 3rd one gave it balance and therefore no crap lyrics made the final versions.

Anyway, I'd be really interested to hear the final output so please share it!



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Sterix

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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2021, 07:30:44 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to read.

I'm currently not sure where we're up to at the moment. Everything was pretty much done-and-dusted my end - with the possible exception of that line I spent so long on. I've spent further time on that (actually turned into looking at the line next to it as well). I've not heard back from my last attempt over a week ago (maybe a good sign!). I've been following their Facebook posts and it seems to be very busy in the studio at the moment so I'm not pressing the matter with them.

@cowparsleyman Thanks for the PM and the advice. Definitely something to think about and I will look into that.

@Boydie The producer (or even the band themselves once they started working in the studio) seems to have brought a little more structure to (some of) the songs. I'll check out those resources when I get enough spare time.

[side note - thank you for running this site. If I hadn't discovered it and taken the chance on joining nothing like this would have happened to me. I'd tried a few other sites but this was the only one that really gave me a hand up and allowed me to progress my art from the page into actual music. Thank you so much!]

@PeteS Fascinating to hear it from your perspective and it sounds similar to how me and the band have been working. I write the lyrics and Jacin editting them somewhat to fit his style of singing. Then I touch those up to keep it all making sense whilst not screwing up his vocals. At the end of the day Jacin will have the final say (not much I can really do from here to stop him singing what he likes in the studio to be honest! :P ) but we seem to have a comfortable relationship with the final lyrics so far.

I'm not 100% on the timeline. According to their Kickstarted campaign they were hoping to release in December. It would make a nice Christmas present! (for myself at least).

adamfarr

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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2021, 06:23:25 PM »
@Sterix fascinating stuff - I hope that the pressure is more from wanting to do a perfect job and not interfering with enjoying the process. I definitely relate to spending hours or days on a line. That's part of it and it feels great when you finally solve it (though having deadlines is a killer when you may have to send in what you have even if not done by your own standards).

They seem like a good band. It's cool that you found them and I hope they appreciate all your input and originality!