[Wicked Deeds]

That's my opinion!  Songwriting is the easy part. A good Production takes much more time and requires far greater skill to get it right!  Opening this one up for everyone.  It would be great to hear your opinions.

[Sing4me88]

I think I both disagree and agree; in terms of getting a commercially viable production along the lines of those hits in the Top4, BillBoard 100 etc production is a dark art (everything here from using vocal chop as hook, getting the right foley/found sounds, applying delay, reverb, compression etc, applying FX to vocals etc). At the same time, I think the base product has to be of a high enough standard in the frst place. A bit of a chicken-egg type conundrum IMHO - will a good production save a 'crap' song and will a crap production ruin a 'good' song.

[Wicked Deeds]

 @Sing4me88 great response to get the discussion rolling. Love the "dark art" comment. I'm really playing devil's advocate because I think the discussion is quite interesting. I guess I'm approaching this from a songwriters perspective. Writing comes easy to me as it's something I've now done for 39 years. Production on the other hand, perhaps 10 and therefore, I'm playing catch up. I can really see how the two disciplines increasingly go hand in hand. This complimentary dark art is difficult to get it right to a high standard.

Paul

[Wicked Deeds]

I can write a song in an hour. If I'm lucky a production will take 2 or 3 days. At times it can take a month. 

Surely others experience this too.

Paul

[PaulAds]

It's the songwriting I spend much more time over rather than production...I have nearly all of my go-to sounds already in the bag...I use the same bunch of presets and guitar/bass/drum sounds on most things.

I love that old-fashioned "album" thing where often, in years gone by, songs from an album were like a snapshot of the sound of a band at a particular point in time...you could tell a Clash song from "Give 'em Enough Rope" instantly...same with The Jam with "Sound Affects" for example...the same guitar and drum sound going through the whole album.

I didn't used to have the patience to do that...or even want to...but now I think it's really important to me to have a definable sound for a collection of songs...and I hate that the "Album" I did under the name of "More Tunes Vicar" is all over the place sound-wise...drums in particular. I should have spent more time re-recording the songs with the album in mind...but, to be honest...I wasn't at all convinced that the songs were worth putting in those extra hours for. And I was right...they weren't

As I've spent the best part of 35 years out gigging...and I think my sound never veers too far away from the idea of three or four people playing a song together in a room or on a stage, with the occasional optional extra (strings, oboe, piano, etc) to cover a part that sounds rubbish played on guitar or needs a different vibe.

That's what I like most of my stuff to sound like. It makes production easy, really...bad production, anyway

It's the vocals that always kill my enthusiasm for my songs. I said in another thread how lucky the people are who have a track ready for the lead vocal to be recorded...who can look forward to knowing they're about to put the icing on the cake...rather than being like me...feeling like I'm about to piss on my own chips

I think it's funny how people often think that the thing they're best at is the bit that is the most important bit. Some will write horses ass lyrics and spend a fortnight getting a mix perfect...or like me...will only be arsed to do three or four vocals to make the best of...because it's more about the song, really...at least, hopefully...I don't agonise over anything much. I rarely get attached to my songs...even though very many are subjects close to my heart. I spent too much time in the past trying to make them sound "good enough" - but they never were...so I thought I'd save myself the grief and aim lower.

I think it's largely a reflection of real life...if someone basically likes me, they make allowances for my failings...whereas, if they think I'm a dick...they kick me in the knackers at the drop of a hat. If you like my songs, or my lyrics or my approach or whatever, you'll perhaps forgive my wavering vocal or cack-handed production...but if you don't like what I do...then the vocal lets it down, or it really needs a middle-eight...or my dad's bigger than yours, and so on.

Great thread...I wish I had a better contribution to make

[Wicked Deeds]

That's interesting @Paulads.  Perhaps I should be more organised. Whilst I often follow the same procedure for recording, my productions are like a blank canvass.  I'm not exactly sure where I am heading. The production evolves and it quite clearly let's me know when to stop.
My vocal is laid down very early in the production stage. It's always a guide vocal but I never revisit To I improve upon the guide vocal. I will often labour over a production. I'm cooking up 'Where Do You Go To' for my choice of cover songs. It should be easy as I obviously know the song structure. It's already written. However, I produce it in bursts, experimenting with different instruments and blending all of those instruments together.  I write parts which are fine but then I throw them away because I instinctively know something better is waiting to be written.  A production is like putting a jigsaw together.  'Where Do You Go To' to' is a 10,000 piece puzzle and I've just about got the edges Sussed!
Back to my original thought, I can nail a song really easily. It's just me and a guitar or piano.  The jigsaw pieces are few and I seem to write with ease.  I'm not overwhelmed with pieces.

Paul

[Boydie]

I can completely understand why “arty songwriter types” get frustrated with production and mixing

To get a real top notch “radio ready” mix and production requires an almost “OCD” level of attention to detail- eg is that syllable in the lead vocal a little too proud? Is the string noise on the guitar distracting or does it add to the live feel? etc. etc.

Most good mixes and productions are the result of a gazillion small, almost imperceptible on their own, tweaks that all add up to make a great mix/production. There is no single “make my mix better” button (yet!)

There is also the LOADS of time and energy that needs to be invested in learning the technical side of production and mixing so that you can quickly get that sound in your head out of the mix - I think this is one of the key frustrations for songwriters

The other big factor is that most people intuitively just “know” when a production/mix sounds “good” from a lifetime of listening to the radio, albums, singles and streaming

They would immediately know that they can’t hear the vocal or the whole mix sounds muddy and lifeless - I don’t think the same can be said about the songs themselves due to the vast variety of subjective opinions and genres

I have spent well over 25 years honing my production and mixing chops and some of it has taken serious study and investment of time (not to mention investment in equipment, software, plugins and effects)

As most know I offer (a very reasonably priced  ) production, mixing and mastering to songwriters for these very reasons - to allow them to concentrate on writing and then let someone else take “the song” to a “radio ready” production

I think the parallel is DIY - I know I am rubbish at DIY, I hate doing it and the end result will never be the same as a skilled tradesman who has years of experience and all of the right tools

To me it is an “investment” to pay someone to come in and do it - even painting

I can then invest my own time in what I am good at and enjoy (life is too short!) AND I will end up with a far superior product that people will see when they visit my house

I am not knocking those that want to learn how to do it themselves (DIY or production) but I think most don’t realise the investment in time that is needed even to get a vary basic mix sounding “professional”

[cowparsleyman]

@Wicked Deeds - This is indeed an interesting thread, and of course very subjective.  Recently I have been listening to early demos and mixes from both XTC and David Bowie, and the role of the producer becomes very clear. Take "Lets Dance" a memorable song for many reasons, Stevie Ray Vaughan on guitar, Carmine Rojas on Bass, Omar Hakin on ENORMOUS drums...but it didn't sound like that to start with...



The strange thing is that Nile Rogers and Bowie were both the songwriters and producers, but it seems that Bob Clearmountain was pivotal in getting the final sound, but one wonders how many iterations were required to get closer to the final cut.

What I might be trying to say is that it takes us ages to produce a song, for others more capable that us, they are much more agile in reaching the sound they want sooner, and it might take more iterations to get there.

Yes the quick bit is sketching out the chords, melody and lyrics for the bones of the song, but so often there is more, only revealed by the process of production.

To me the writing and production of a song are so inextricably entwined that there ain't a fag paper between them, it's a rare song that isn't modified in the production stage,  and the most important bit is to wait until it's properly finished, as I've said before it's rather like giving birth, it's not to easy to put it back once released.

@PaulAds - it's interesting to read that you don't agonise too much over your songs, and you don't get attached to them...but production wise You know what sound you want, you then apply it. You kind of imply that you know you should do more on the vocals, but you ignore the feeling, and then you don't get attached to it.

Vocals are often a point of agony, and are usually the star of the song, so they deserve special care and attention, like filling in your passport application correctly.

The songs I can't get attached to don't get finished, they are thrown in the B&Q song incinerator very early, drenched with songkiller and yip there are loads of them.

Hope this helps...

[Wicked Deeds]

@Boydie and @cowparsleyman,

Great measured responses. Thank you. It seems that the songwriter is the goose that lays the golden egg but the producer really does play a special role in how the song is presented and we the listener finally hear it.

@Boydie,

I can totally relate to the OCD aspect of production. I certainly experience that.  It's both enjoyable but infuriating as I can't let go of the reigns until I can achieve the sound that is inside my head. In the meantime, other mundane tasks may sometimes go on hold.

@cowparsleyman,

It really does seems to me that whilst the producer doesn't always get songwriting credit, they can often breath life into a song that would otherwise sound very different.  It is easy to see how a producer might wish to be included in writing credits. That debate would however require a whole new thread for discussion.

Great responses here. It would be good to get the views of as many people as possible.

Paul

[PaulAds]

Interesting...very interesting...

The vocals I record usually follow the law of diminishing returns. I can sometimes capture something worthwhile in the early stages. Due to enthusiasm and even excitement...but it invariably tends to be sloppy...and the temptation is then to redo it in the hope that the performance will improve...technically if not emotionally. Usually, this really saps my belief in my singing as every lousy take is a reminder of how inadequate my voice is. I don’t mean to boo hoo about it, because I can write and play and what-have-you pretty well...and you can’t have everything. I think that’s why I try to avoid writing anything that could be considered generic or mainstream. My last song only used the first vocal and harmony vocal I recorded. Not because they were really good...but because they sounded as pissed-off and off-kilter as I felt.

There’s also the quest for perfection in recording music...which seems bonkers to me. We accept flawed government, flawed science, flawed law and order and flawed everything else and yet there seems to a be a drive towards only accepting perfection in such a comparatively trivial field.

The Bob Clearmountain thing is fascinating. I mostly know of Bob Clearmountain from his remix of The Clash “Rock the Casbah” which if nothing else goes to show how important the record company thought it was to get the sound of that track sounding the best it possibly could...and yet whenever I hear it, I feel slightly embarrassed about loving The Clash. I think Glyn Johns produced “Combat Rock” - the album it came from - and it’s an atrocity. Not his fault, I’m sure...I just wish he’d told them what Chris Parry told The Jam upon hearing the demos they’d recorded for what became “All Mod Cons” ie “This is SHIT” and forced them to pull themselves together.

There’s an early (pre record deal) demo of “White Riot” that makes a mockery of what The Clash became...despite them presumably becoming more adept at their occupations and benefitting from the wisdom and expertise of Sandy Pearlman, Guy Stevens and the aforementioned mssrs Johns and Clearmountain.

I’ve probably gone to extremes to illustrate my point...but a brilliantly recorded and produced “OK” song would always struggle to match a brilliant song with “OK” production to me. EDIT: better still, of course is to aim for both...I meant to say that...but side-tracked myself 

I think we’re lucky in that many of the forum folks are able to produce things that sound absolutely “OK” now. Lots of forum members have had songs played on BBC radio. So the standard must be good enough. I only wish the shit they broadcast about current affairs had the same quality control.  We marvel at what can be done with modern technology...but the thread about “The Hollies” recording “On a carousel” just makes me think that we’d got good enough at recording music 50 years ago and a lot of it nowadays is smart for smart’s sake. Other forms of music that are less dependent on more traditional instruments like guitars, basses, drums, pianos and orchestras have probably benefitted much more from the advances in music tech.

I’m loving the discussion!

[Kafla]

Couldn’t disagree more @Wicked Deeds sorry 😬🤣

It all in the writing , or as Nile Rogers says the rewriting...

Production can be easily outsourced...

Stevie Nicks demoing Rhiannon is memorising...Lindsay Buckingham’s production and arrangement takes it to a new level...but without the writing Lindsay has nothing to work on...

I can feel a one instrument , one vocal song challenge coming on 😁👌

[Wicked Deeds]

What would you know @kafla 🤣😜😂

My real observation is songwriting is often quite easy. Production can take 10 times, 20, or 30 times longer to achieve. It can be sourced out but my  observation is, the process can take an age to accomplish (at least for amateur songwriter producers like most of us.)  I guess we're now all beginning to wear so many different hats as songwriters and in the process, gaining an insight into what it requires to effectively acquire the skills of different disciplines.

Great to hear your resonse Andy.

Paul

[cowparsleyman]

@kafla - Totally agree with you, a good song is a good song even in it's early stages (you know that I approach artists on this forum to remix their stuff) ...and different Producers hear things differently, right from when I was a young lad I dissected everything I heard on the radio into it's component parts, which is a blessing and a curse (I very often don't hear the stories behind lyrics, just the relative levels in the mix, I'll be in the kitchen and my Wife will be listening to a song and I'll remark on how superb the compression of the kick is..but it sure helps with mixing)

You give me a song to Produce and I'm like a sculpture starting with a great piece of marble, so enthusiastic... I can hear the shape of the piece right there, and I'll listen to how you want it and by the time we get to the end We are both really in harmony, part of the time taken in production is knowing how to technically achieve a particular sound (How do you get an echo freeze that goes on and on, or spin down stop or that slappy Beatles piano? Producers know how to do it, and they are very often risk takers, they'll try loads of things to make your song special, why not put a full orchestra in that bit and then mangle it with an envelope follower sync'd to the host bpm? then it's gone... hook after hook created and loaded ready to dig themselves into the ears of the listener.


@Wicked Deeds - I always look who produced a track, (How many times have you watched a video or an award ceremony and they all thank the producer "without whom it could never have been done" etc. etc. They know that they wrote the song song, and that it was made a hit song by the producer (not to forget the mixing engineer who is so often forgotten and works blinking hard - "Oh can't you get me this sound please Gordon" or it'll be him that chose the micing placement for the drums)

Another way of looking at it is this, How many of us sent cassettes of demos to EMI, Decca, Island or other record labels? You didn't expect that to be released, you wanted that time in the Studio...with a producer....and the hit would be transform from scratchy, almost empty demo to bangin' hit.

@PaulAds - It's more likely that the first couple of takes will be better than the rest...Your voice is fine man, just make me believe that your heart is in the song, and I'll buy it, even if it isn't, lie to me please but make it a convincing lie.

[Andreas]

This is a very interesting topic, and it made me think... yhep, it`s not good when I start thinking too much..

For me, it is very dependent I think.. If I am in the right mood and have a lot of inspiration running through my blood, I can write songs in an hour and less, and also multiple songs a day. (ref: no they are not all good) And as all my songs start acoustic most of the time, it is much easier to grab my guitar hanging on the wall half a meter from where I am sitting and start writing, than starting up my MacBook and opening up Logic to start producing.

When it comes to producing, when I am in the zone, and now that I am starting to learn more and more, and grow in this craft of art, I have fun doing it, but what takes the most time for me, is adding instruments and having a balance of over produced and stripped.. But as @Boydie said about the OCD levels of detail.. for someone who struggle with OCD on a daily basis, I can confirm that statement.. I pay much more attention to the little details in production than what I do writing, where I more or less rely on my source of inspiration to do the job, when in producing I am more devoted and can`t rely on inspiration, but more on how I visualize the song and how I can hear it in my mind and then I try to re-create that sound-image... And with the details, as I don`t have 5-10-20-30 years of experience, I ask more experienced and more talented producers if I have specific questions that will help me get better, @cowparsleyman especially, thank you man... and I binge-watch videos on YouTube, Skillshare and now recently Slate Academy.. It is incredible how much good info one can find online these days..

But like @Wicked Deeds statement was, I also find songwriting to be the easiest for now, but eventually, I hope the craft of producing will come more naturally for me, and that I can open Logic or any other DAW I might have in the future, and re-create my visualizations of a song in  a heartbeat (yes I know, I have high hopes haha) 

[Sing4me88]

I guess  I was trying to say what Kafla said - only he's done a much better job.

The song itself has to be good to begin with I think. If you look at Radio 1 Live Lounge for example; some of the biggest stars come in and cover their own (and others) hits in a minimalist stripped down way. The same with one person and two piece bands playing in a local pub (long before the pandemic laid waste to that!). The  basis of a strong song - the vocal melody, the lyrics, the hook etc are all there to begin with. The version of these songs on the radio might be a product of the dark arts yet at the same time anyone with a guitar and/or piano can do it justice.

I think maybe I see production and songwriting as being on the same musical spectrum - albeit at different ends - rather than being two separate musical processes....