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Recording multitrack audio on Windows

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PeteS

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« on: June 02, 2020, 02:38:02 PM »
My musical partner, Neil, is also a bit of a drummer but currently I create all the tracks because we haven't recorded him.  He has an Alesis strike electronic kit with 8 outputs for recording.  So i know I can put them into something like the Behringer UMC1820 and on my Mac I could record each output to it's own channel, which is the goal.

However, Neil doesn't have a Mac, he's a Windows man.  Our preference would be to have the same software (partly as I'm the nerdy techie type with time on his hands to delve in and solve problems!) so we have been experimenting with single track recording into Audacity and that works perfectly.  But it's all on one track of course.

So if he buys the 1820 what is the best way to record the tracks?  As far as I can see Audacity can't do it on Windows.  We don't have a DAW in common as I use Garageband, he has Cakewalk but has yet to open it and clearly we could try Presonus Studio one Free or the Behringer devices come with a full version of Tracktion.  But if we use a DAW I guess he'll need to do 8 individual exports to get each track in isolation.

Bearing in mind that I will do all the post production work, all he needs to do is create 8 tracks and save them for me to access, he doesn't need plugins or anything complicated, just a quality audio file, what is the best way?

Anyone got any ideas?

Cheers

Pete
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Jambrains

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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2020, 02:55:04 PM »
Why not let him record just the midi out from the Alesis (I assume it has midi) and send to you? Then you can use it to "drive" any drum sample library you fancy without having to commit to the built in sounds of the Alesis.

cowparsleyman

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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2020, 04:07:09 PM »
@PeteS - @Jambrains is right, that would work well, the MIDI data is very lightweight and you can use a wav of the current mix and a clicktrack to record the drums MIDI separately, then whack it into BFD3 or similar....but here's another way that I use...

The issue with using a digital kit to record midi is latency, even a little delay is enough to make it impossible to play. There ways around it from Firewire/PCIe interfaces, to tiny ASIO buffers, to monitoring tricks.

This all sounds so familiar...I use Windows, and have a Yamaha DTxtreme IIIs. I love the sound of the Yamaha kit, it really is a dream to play and record with.

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/drums/yamaha-dtxtreme-iii-special-150397

I route the individual audio outs from the kit to a Behringer ADA8200

https://www.behringer.com/Categories/Behringer/Computer-Audio/Interfaces/ADA8200/p/P0ATL#googtrans(en|en)

This is wonderful,  it connects to my UM1820 using ADAT, effectively giving me the full 20 mic / instrument inputs into my DAW. I use a multicore cable to connect the drum outputs to the instrument inputs of the ADA8200, it's just a bit neater that's all. (I can use it as a mic pre it has 48v too - on all inputs)

This is probably the best solution for me as I like the 'feel' of the kit, and sound of the drums.

On the down side, it's not as flexible as MIDI, it's a bit more work moving things about, quantizing slips, and as Jambrains says, you can choose a different kit in your MIDI drumming library if you want.

If you want any more info, just contact me. Hope this helps.



PeteS

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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2020, 04:37:57 PM »
Why not let him record just the midi out from the Alesis (I assume it has midi) and send to you? Then you can use it to "drive" any drum sample library you fancy without having to commit to the built in sounds of the Alesis.

I did suggest that @Jambrains but he wasn't happy with me changing his sound  ;D. No idea why!
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PeteS

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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2020, 04:43:57 PM »
Thanks @cowparsleyman, given midi is out, your solution sounds exactly what I am trying to do.  I can substitute the 1820 for the ADA8200 and all good.  It's the DAW solution that's the problem.

He doesn't really have one!  That's where Audacity came in but I can't see that working on Windows.  I tried Studio one Prime (Free) and it works a treat, even better than Garageband as it will extract all that tracks as individual files in one go, but you are limited to 2 inputs on the free version.  So buying the Artis version is one solution.  I have Cakewalk on his machine but it's not been opened.  I would guess that will capture the audio in the same way, I'll just need to wait until I can get in front of it to see how the extract process works.
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Jambrains

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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2020, 04:48:48 PM »
Why not let him record just the midi out from the Alesis (I assume it has midi) and send to you? Then you can use it to "drive" any drum sample library you fancy without having to commit to the built in sounds of the Alesis.

I did suggest that @Jambrains but he wasn't happy with me changing his sound  ;D. No idea why!
Then he may just as well give you a stereo track since he won't like you to mess with the balance of his kit pieces as you would if you had the individual outs. Not to mention eq, compression and so on  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

PeteS

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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2020, 05:08:42 PM »
He doesn't yet know what I can do with it  ;D ;D
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cowparsleyman

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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2020, 06:30:30 PM »
Aha...the role of the producer...

PeteS

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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 03:49:40 PM »
So what do I know eh!

I went over to Neil's with my new Behringer UMC404 and recorded 4 tracks - Kick, Snare, HH and Ride.  Sounded great.

Then I said you could try the midi route, we did that and he loved it so that's what we will be doing!

I'd have laid money on him hating that  ;D

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PeteS

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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2020, 06:03:15 PM »
@cowparsleyman @Jambrains Thanks for your input so far but I now have a more specific question about this that yo, or others, may be able to help with.

I have connected hid Alesis Strike jit to bout Studio One and Garageband and the hi hat  and one of the crashes don't sound.  I know that is because they are putting out the wrong midi code.  So I have downloaded the Alesis Strike editor and started changing the midi code they use.  I have been replacing them with the codes on this page https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/SongWriter2012Win/Content/PercussionMaps.htm but that is also not quite right, certainly the 3 parts of the hi-hat were still not right.  It is also very long winded with an amount of trial and error and I still can't get it sounding right.

Any idea why it would do that or what I can do to fix it properly.

Thanks

Pete
New album out now - Wrong Time, Wrong Place : https://open.spotify.com/album/7AKxi8xiendb9dY22v4QnP?si=AR0VZ1pjSDOwVosifVd_sA
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Boydie

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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 07:55:22 AM »
@PeteS

Welcome to the world of “MIDI MAPPING” and “Drum Maps”

I have found this particularly problematic in the past

From my experience I would recommend the following....

If you already have the MIDI recording I would simply go in to the “Piano Roll” Midi Editor on Studio One and select the whole row of notes and move them to the sound you want

If you need to trigger sounds whilst recording I would suggest recording using the internal drum sounds for the drummer and then use the method above to move things to the right kit pieces

If it were my own kit and you will be using the same virtual sounds I would even consider changing the assignment on the kit to match the MIDI sounds in the virtual kit

The theory of midi maps is great but they are a pig to set up as they add another layer to your ins and outs. I don’t use them enough to be worth the aggro of setting them up so I use the workarounds above (life is too short!)

There should be a “standard” (General MIDI) - but things have moved on so much there appears to be a bit of a free for all with different hardware and software
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cowparsleyman

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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 08:40:09 AM »
@PeteS - Hi Pete, yeah MIDI maps can be a right pain,

I use a MIDI utility that is separate from the DAW, it's called pocket MIDI, I can see what's being sent by any of my midi devices, and this really helps in setting up MIDI maps. You'll see what not value is being sent to the pc, that should help.

Here's the link ...

https://www.morson.jp/pocketmidi-webpage/





« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 11:26:53 AM by cowparsleyman »

PeteS

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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 04:17:06 PM »
@PeteS

Welcome to the world of “MIDI MAPPING” and “Drum Maps”

I have found this particularly problematic in the past

From my experience I would recommend the following....

If you already have the MIDI recording I would simply go in to the “Piano Roll” Midi Editor on Studio One and select the whole row of notes and move them to the sound you want

If you need to trigger sounds whilst recording I would suggest recording using the internal drum sounds for the drummer and then use the method above to move things to the right kit pieces

If it were my own kit and you will be using the same virtual sounds I would even consider changing the assignment on the kit to match the MIDI sounds in the virtual kit

The theory of midi maps is great but they are a pig to set up as they add another layer to your ins and outs. I don’t use them enough to be worth the aggro of setting them up so I use the workarounds above (life is too short!)

There should be a “standard” (General MIDI) - but things have moved on so much there appears to be a bit of a free for all with different hardware and software

Hi @Boydie, I did do that to start with but the Alesis puts out three notes, open, closed and foot.  Couldn't work out what to do with foot but I think that's really just closed.  To be honest, I've learnt a lot since I did that so it may be easier now than it was then.  I'll try again. 

He doesn't need to hear them whilst playing as he'll just use the native alesis kit sounds. 

I was surprised the standards had changed.  I haven't done much with midi codes for many years and they have progressed and I guess manufacturers have gone there own ways as well.
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PeteS

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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2020, 04:36:56 PM »
@PeteS - Hi Pete, yeah MIDI maps can be a right pain,

I use a MIDI utility that is separate from the DAW, it's called pocket MIDI, I can see what's being sent by any of my midi devices, and this really helps in setting up MIDI maps. You'll see what not value is being sent to the pc, that should help.

Here's the link ...

https://www.morson.jp/pocketmidi-webpage/

Thanks @cowparsleyman, I've downloaded it and I can see that when I hit a key on my keyboard I can see the hex version of the note that can be converted to decimal.   But I already know that number because I can see that in the Alesis utility. 

The real problem seems to be matching it in Garageband.  I don't have a definitive list of GB midi drum notes so I am using trial and error to build a conversion chart.  OHH = Alesis 8 and GB 42 or something like that.

I'll keep progressing both options for a while I think but at least I now know for sure that it's not just me, it really is that bloody complicated!

Cheers

Pete
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cowparsleyman

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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2020, 05:02:03 PM »
@PeteS - Hi Pete, yeah MIDI maps can be a right pain,

I use a MIDI utility that is separate from the DAW, it's called pocket MIDI, I can see what's being sent by any of my midi devices, and this really helps in setting up MIDI maps. You'll see what not value is being sent to the pc, that should help.

Here's the link ...

https://www.morson.jp/pocketmidi-webpage/

Thanks @cowparsleyman, I've downloaded it and I can see that when I hit a key on my keyboard I can see the hex version of the note that can be converted to decimal.   But I already know that number because I can see that in the Alesis utility. 

The real problem seems to be matching it in Garageband.  I don't have a definitive list of GB midi drum notes so I am using trial and error to build a conversion chart.  OHH = Alesis 8 and GB 42 or something like that.

I'll keep progressing both options for a while I think but at least I now know for sure that it's not just me, it really is that bloody complicated!

Cheers

Pete

Pete, i wasn’t sure if the alesis had that facility...but it pretty useful to have it about for other devices too.

I wish you well in finding what each drum element expects to receive in gb.

One way you could try is put a crotchet in each piano roll note (Sequentially) all thE way up the keyboard and see if anything fires off the hats
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 05:03:36 PM by cowparsleyman »