[cowparsleyman]

Isn’t paulski a web developer?

[MichaelA]

I've hosted SOTM a couple of times. When doing so I finally came round to choosing my shortlist based on the number of favourable reviews a song has had. That made me select some songs that weren't necessarily my personal faves, but were obviously the most favoured by forum members. But all that takes time, and sometimes the amount of votes received makes the whole exercise seem less than rewarding.

The last time I hosted it one of the winning placings and one of the close runners up didn't even come on to acknowledge the vote or say thanks. One of my nominations didn't even vote. So I thought there was too much apathy for the thing to legitimately continue.

So if it does continue I would be in favour of a more automated mechanism.

In the past, in real life ie retail ecommerce, I have commissioned developers to install star rating reviews on product pages. If we had this, whenever we each  did a normal review we would also get the chance to add a star rating.

At the end of the month SOTM would simply be the song that had been awarded the most stars.

This also takes away the sometime quite arbitrary selection of nominees by any particular month's hosting member. Every response to a song would mean something and that's far more democratic and fair. But it would mean someone would have to step forward to install a star rating plug in on the forum. Probably not that hard. But also an administrator or member with permission to inspect the back end would have to take responsibility for announcing the winner.

Compared to other forums I have been on, for songwriting and other interests, this forum seems very 'self managed' by ordinary members and with little input from the 'owners' or the usual 'moderators' I normally see elsewhere. So initiatives will inevitably drift. That's another delicate but important subject!

But carrying on SOTM in the current arbitrary and semi-forced way - well sadly it's only heading in one direction. So Star Ratings leading to an automated winner would be my preference.

[Paulski]

Isn’t paulski a web developer?

I've done some - but mostly work with Java applications.
I like the SOTM contests but lately haven't had time to listen and vote - my bad.
Participation waxes and wanes in these contests, but even if only the nominees vote I think it's still fun.

[cowparsleyman]

@MichaelA +1 for star rating , then all the things behind the vote are included in the rating

[Boydie]

In the past, in real life ie retail ecommerce, I have commissioned developers to install star rating reviews on product pages. If we had this, whenever we each  did a normal review we would also get the chance to add a star rating.

I think this is where I have a bit of a problem with star ratings or votes for songs - they are simply not “products”

I have made no secret that I personally don’t like the idea of songwriting “competitions” as it is soooo subjective and despite the “it is all just a bit of fun” element some songwriters/artistic types have very fragile egos so I can’t help thinking that the 1 winner is “happy” but everyone else is disappointed

I also think it would be very demoralising for someone new to songwriting, and the forum, to keep getting “1 star” scores for every song they post - which is why the ethos of the song reviewing is all about “supportive, constructive criticism” - which I think this forum strikes the right balance of more than any other forum I have seen (which is all down to you guys  )

HOWEVER - I do like the concept of “SOTM” to highlight some of the outstanding songs that are constantly being posted and I agree that there should be some kind of formal recognition on a regular basis - but how we effectively manage this without introducing a system that would discourage aspiring writers is a bit of a challenge

Perhaps we should look at this from a different angle...

How about reducing the frequency (quarterly?) and each member is eligible to SUBMIT 1 song for consideration that has been posted in the previous quarter

This would then put the onus on the members to submit the songs (perhaps in to a separate forum area we could create) by a specific deadline

This would mean those that don’t want to be “put up” don’t have to and it will cut the time taken to trawl through loads of forum posts and check dates etc. as the member would do this as part of their submission

We could then have a “panel” of people review the songs and decide a winner and a few “panel picks” that we can do something to showcase for the next quarter

Then this is the bit I think would address my nervousness about the competition element...

A condition of entry would be that if you win you need to give a brief summary of how you wrote, recorded, produced the song - eg like a magazine interview - which would not only give the winner some kudos - but it would also directly help aspiring writers improve, which must remain the primary role of this forum

My $0.02 to help the discussion

[cowparsleyman]

In the past, in real life ie retail ecommerce, I have commissioned developers to install star rating reviews on product pages. If we had this, whenever we each  did a normal review we would also get the chance to add a star rating.

I think this is where I have a bit of a problem with star ratings or votes for songs - they are simply not “products”

I have made no secret that I personally don’t like the idea of songwriting “competitions” as it is soooo subjective and despite the “it is all just a bit of fun” element some songwriters/artistic types have very fragile egos so I can’t help thinking that the 1 winner is “happy” but everyone else is disappointed

I also think it would be very demoralising for someone new to songwriting, and the forum, to keep getting “1 star” scores for every song they post - which is why the ethos of the song reviewing is all about “supportive, constructive criticism” - which I think this forum strikes the right balance of more than any other forum I have seen (which is all down to you guys  )

HOWEVER - I do like the concept of “SOTM” to highlight some of the outstanding songs that are constantly being posted and I agree that there should be some kind of formal recognition on a regular basis - but how we effectively manage this without introducing a system that would discourage aspiring writers is a bit of a challenge

Perhaps we should look at this from a different angle...

How about reducing the frequency (quarterly?) and each member is eligible to SUBMIT 1 song for consideration that has been posted in the previous quarter

This would then put the onus on the members to submit the songs (perhaps in to a separate forum area we could create) by a specific deadline

This would mean those that don’t want to be “put up” don’t have to and it will cut the time taken to trawl through loads of forum posts and check dates etc. as the member would do this as part of their submission

We could then have a “panel” of people review the songs and decide a winner and a few “panel picks” that we can do something to showcase for the next quarter

Then this is the bit I think would address my nervousness about the competition element...

A condition of entry would be that if you win you need to give a brief summary of how you wrote, recorded, produced the song - eg like a magazine interview - which would not only give the winner some kudos - but it would also directly help aspiring writers improve, which must remain the primary role of this forum

My $0.02 to help the discussion

I really like this idea in all of it's parts, especially the 'How it was done" bit.  However you mentioned before to a couple of forum members that how can they be both learners and teachers?, I sometimes have a brief moment of "am i qualified to give advice AND receive it"? but I guess I am, I can always learn and I do have some of knowledge & experience to share to help other members.

Anyway yip, great idea Boydie

[shadowfax]

Yo.  We have this discussion at least once a year I think.  Yay to @MonnoDB for volunteering for March.
I also think the forum would be a poorer place without SOTM.   Everyone is so polite, I think it is nice to have some kind of mechanism on top of that where the real gems each month get an extra spotlight... coz they usually are real gems, right?
I have wondered from time to time if there wouldn't be an easier way to run it 'automatically' rather than someone having to shortlist and host at the end of each month.  For example, what if whenever you listened to and commented on a track you had the option to also give it a secret score from 1-10 depending on how much you liked it.  Then at the end of the month we could just reveal the 'top ten' for that month... average score for any song that got 5 or more people scoring it... something like that.  We'd only publish the top 10 scores so no one would get disheartened by getting a rock bottom score, but it would be kudos to make it into the top 10.  Then maybe more people would participate because you could just be part of the process every time you reviewed a track during the month, rather than having to re-listen to songs at the end of the month.  It would be more like the 'charts' for the forum I guess.  Bit of tech development needed probably... but not too hard?

+ 1 to those suggestions

[5 guys named Lars]

As one of those pricks who never votes I have given myself a severe thrashing & promise to vote in future.
I think it would be a shame if you/we binned it but thats easy for me to say isn`t it?

[PaulAds]

Great input from everyone... Ta.

Anybody fancy joining in to have an informal chat about this...along with anything else you fancy talking about?

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=17333.60

[PaulyX]

Hi, I can't join the chat tonight but to chip in, when Boydie says...

"I also think it would be very demoralising for someone new to songwriting, and the forum, to keep getting “1 star” scores for every song they post"

... yeah I agree with that... that's where the suggestion to keep scores secret and only publish the top 10 came from.  I.e. You wouldn't know your score unless it was a pretty good one.

Personally I'm not so keen on the quarterly idea (feels too long to me) or the idea of having to put one of your own songs forward.  Nominating your own stuff always feel too self-aggrandising to me.

Anyway there's my penn'orth...  have a good chat those of you who can join it.

[adamfarr]

Also won't be around this evening but I think keeping this going somehow with less work and more participation would be a "good thing", as it gives a selection of songs a bit more profile, recognition and listens. That's it really! Cheers everyone.

[CaliaMoko]

I can't be at the chat tonight, either, so here's an additional thought. I'm okay with quarterly, and I'm thinking of the theme challenges we have from time to time. Could we make those quarterly instead of whenever someone brings it up? And people could then "enter" (rather than "nominate themselves"). They could be themed or not--maybe some of each or whatever the host(s) decide.

[MonnoDB]

Interesting read...

So I too would not be in favour of having to nominate yourself - I think that would be hard.. I think what's nice about the current host set up is that it is actually subjective and therefore one person's personal taste.. sometimes I'm very surprised by the songs that are omitted and the songs included... but that's part of the fun...

The last time I ran it I had 18 votes - not fabulous but not too shabby either... I think compared to active members it probably works..

So I would be in favour of keeping it monthly and hosted.. I see that there doesn't seem to be anyone who can write me my script and I've had a look at the search functionality and although you can search by subforum within a date range, you can't actually do a wildcard search so there's no way for me to pull up all the March songs apart from the usual REALLY time-consuming and not foolproof method of going into each thread so I have a request / suggestion to make life easier for the host...

Can we put the Month Name in the Subject line - then I can search for all of the March songs - or simply see them with my eyes !! While you guys decide on the best approach going forward.. That's my quick & dirty solution to March - I'll do the hosting if all of those with March songs do a quick subject edit? What say you? Obviously I'll put up a thread requesting that separately to catch everyone...

K

[pompeyjazz]

@MonnoDB Karen - I'm quite happy to trawl through the eligible songs (From members with 100+ posts) Over the next couple of days. Got some time on my hands  and let you have the list

Cheers

John

[Sterix]

Perhaps there's room for something like a random(ish) member volunteers/is pressganged into choosing some songs from the last month they like or have piqued their interest and showcase them, explaining why they like them and maybe even managing a quick Q&A with the artists regarding those songs.

It would be sort of a competition without any actual winners and losers...