[Cawproductions]

Hi Peter

Great insight into the pro world,

For most of us, we are just trying to follow our passion for songwriting, playing and recording.

As a follow on from my original post, its been interesting to hear, When people use tuning, how much and what type.

I did hear an interview with Ralph Mctell, and he was saying that digital recording has killed music, stating that the art and skill of the single take has gone, But we could start a whole new discussion on that.

This has been an interesting topic.

Cheers
Andy

[Bill Saunders]

I tune everything. Always. I don't think you can hear the tuning much - but you can definitely hear the offness without. I can't bear to release something that isn't as good as I can make it... which may still fall down in comparison to others but that's not the point... And yes, I think everyone has access to a more or less good tuning plugin for free so they should learn how to use it (took me a while to actually figure it out!)

@adamfarr that was exactly what I used to do, and for those exact same reasons. When @Boydie mixed and mastered my last album, after doing about three songs, he suggested that I be really brave and send over vocals that hadn’t been pitch corrected. To say I felt rather “exposed” was an understatement!

It was a real learning point for me. Tune what you need to, but if it sounds good, leave it alone. Once again, it is a question of having the confidence to trust your ears, rather than your eyes which is showing you sang a particular note sharp or flat.

The danger, and what was happening with me was that, yes I had previously presented songs with 100% pitch perfect vocals, but this was at the expense of feeling and expression.

[redrhodie]

"Or simply that people dont like tuned vocals, now I am not talking about the horrific Cher thing or some guy called T payne..just minor pitch fixes on phrases."

Yes, this. I don't want to have my pitch corrected. I would rather do 30 takes and get it almost right than have it tuned to perfection afterwards. I also don't like editing out flubs, so if I screw up while recording, I re-record the whole track from the beginning. If I don't get it right, I know you'll tell me so, and that's fine. Then I know what to work on. So yes, for me it's a conscious decision. I'd prefer that that vocal tuning software didn't exist. If your vocal needs a ton of work, then take voice lessons. I don't mean that to be mean. That's just what singers have always done. Sing more.

As songwriters, do what you need to to get a better shot at getting your song produced. But everything that the S said above is right on. If you're a singer, you should be able to carry a tune.

[shadowfax]

+1 for redrhodie's post, best to keep on tracking till you get it right, this has the pleasing side effect of making you a better singer, every new song I start with is out of tune all over the place but after the 30th/40th take I start to feel like I have a lot more more space in the song and it just gets better and better...the only way to go
absoloutley nothing against peeps using it though, I'm not a purist, the end justifies the means..or is it the means justifies the end never can remember that
If having pitch correction enables a good songwriter but a poor singer to get a song out there, so be it, use whatever tech is available
end of the day, it's about the song..not how it got to be a song, the average listener doesn't care.

[cowparsleyman]

An interesting read, especially @redrhodie - just finished an all vocal tracking Session, from Lead vocals, to layers of BVs.

There really is no substitute for rehearsal, in that, if one practices the lines 30 times, pay particular attention to note lengths and dynamics before switching on the mic, (it’s a beautiful thing when 4 bv’s move dynamically together, that is quiet to loud and back again, remember watching a church choir? And thinking wow, how skilful, but it’s just having a vision and then practice) i would recommend planning the bv’s ahead of recording, thats easier after the lvox has been tracked.

Maybe have a piano alongside, so the harmonies can be designed a bit easier.

Hope this helps

[Cawproductions]

Hi all,

Been running along with all these comments and yeh totally agree, practice makes perfect, Did someone say 30 - 40 takes, I find my first 5 takes are in progress, then I hit a sweet spot where the tone is getting better and I am getting used the flow of the lines, so maybe another 3 good takes, then from that point on, its usually downhill. Throats get sore, especially on shouty tracks.

As I do all the vocals on our tracks, some have 16 lanes of lead and BVs, I find you have to know when your are in the zone and not keep going if its sh*t. You cant fix it in the mix.

But I wasn't talking about Vocalists specifically, they know their craft, engineers know their craft, fact is, in this forum, I would say most of us are trying to be all things to our projects, that was kinda my vibe.

Anyway, interesting read

ps, if in doubt, wind the autotune to 11.5 and we can fix it later...happy days

[Jamie]

Hi all, just to add my threepence worth, I too have been following this thread with interest and there are many good points made here, and I suppose it suggests there is nothing to beat really knowing the song inside out before trying to get a good vocal take. The first takes are always woeful as you play with the phrasing and try to get the timing and pitch right, but eventually it improves to the point where getting a good take and tweaking it to get all the pitchy bits sorted is my preferred method.I am not skilful enough to cobble together a multitude of takes to make a complete performance.Virtually all my songs are a one take vocal performance (sections of harmonies and doubles are easy to do as sections though).Also as most know doubling a vocal can hide a multitude of sins too . I have logic pro x and it has an auto tune for the whole track and that can give some 'interesting' results, so I tend to use it judicially.
But, also as someone said before, if you need it to get a great sounding song, use it. It's a tool to be used, and its' no surprise to me that the truly great singers make a fortune from singing, because it's not that easy.......

Good thread.

Cheers
Jamie

[digger72]

I've never used tuning - not sure it would make me sound much better - just exaggerate how bad I sound.
I really loathe any sort of tuning you can hear - like the Cher thing; makes me want to break things. I'd much rather hear an imperfect vocal.
If people use tuning and it's not obvious, then more power to their elbow if it produces the results they want to hear.
Personally I just use what Katja sends me and run with it.
It's just nice to hear someone sing well what I can't. 

[cowparsleyman]

So interesting this thread, even brilliant vocalists are not always in tune, or in time, but as this is about tune, I'll stick to that. @Cawproductions is right there is a sweet spot, and when it's gone it's blimmin well gone..., so that's another tip, track all takes...you never know the availability of the Vocalist after that session, not their appitite to do any more sessions thereafter, if it's a long distance collab get them to send EVERYTHING, warts n all, I've certainly used bits of one song on another... Vocal takes are gold dust.

What Melodyne does do is to make a great vocal line perfect, you can see very small inaccuracies, which are really subliminal, but some folk can hear, this resolves these, and on the whole vocalists love it too, sounding very polished, often I have been told with a bunch of stems "forgive my crap singing' but it's not crap singing, it's brilliant, the passion for the words, the approach, the melody line, the dynamics all great, but a little off beam, now I'm not going to ask for that again, I can fix it, if I have the right tools.

Hope this helps.

[Cawproductions]

I use a melodyne on all of my vocals, so before anyone goes all wobbly,

If I have to move a not a whole semitone then I have clearly messed it up, but if I feel I put in a good take emotionally I will try and fix it, but am very well aware, turds cannot be polished very well.

The video link included shows how Melodyne can take a really good vocal and make it great.

This was the basis of my original post, NOT Autotune which IMHO sounds horrific
Enjoy

This video pretty much hammers home why popular tracks are done this way.

[PaulAds]

Just imagine how good Freddy Mercury, Sinatra, Elvis and The Beatles could have been 😀

I worry because so much of modern life turns to bollocks in the name of progress.

They can present Harry Kane with all the golden boots they can be arsed with and award him with beard of the year or whatever...but they can’t turn him into Jimmy Greaves.

It’s the human element that people really connect with, isn’t it?

Rather than perfection...or worse still, fake perfection.

[pompeyjazz]

I given up messing about with any auto tune stuff. I'd prefer my vocal stuff to be heard raw and preferably in the first few takes as even though it will be imperfect it's a truer reflection of myself and that's all I want to convey in my songs 

[cowparsleyman]

@Cawproductions - in my opinion Autotune sounds awful and wouldn't touch them with ten barge poles lashed together with really strong fluffy brown string, and held tight by a really strong person putting their finger over it while you tie your best knot, and then inevitably doing the knot a second time, to make sure.

Melodyne is a blessing, especially for me whose upper range has a rather sudden ceiling that is preluded by a husky dry rush of out-of-tune air, akin to practising my last breath.

I (and all the other vocalists I have worked with) always try to sing in tune, but sometimes it just doesn't happen, on one ocaasion both I and the BV vocalist, had sore throats, and melodyne was a godsend, neither of us could do re takes, so I picked the best tracks and Melodyned them as best I could, and as Oliver Hardy would say, "Nobody is any the wiser, Stanley"

As @pompeyjazz said, there is always the option not to use it, if one wants to keep the feel and passion of the slightly off notes, and yip I use that approach to, very often, in fact most of my songs are not melodyned, but it's very very useful when you are faced with a situation such as: The song is nearly ready but that one off note stands out like a sore thumb, the vocalist has long gone...

Hope this helps.

[PaulAds]

I got waves tune as part of a bundle I bought when I started writing again about five years ago. Tried it once or twice as I was having real problems with my voice. I didn't like the sound of it and found it really complicated to use and never touched it since.

I've done demos of songs and had a bit of a kicking for being unable to sing them really well...which is fair enough. I have said before on here that I would never have joined a Singers Forum...but I would give a Songwriters Forum a go.

I'm sure that everybody on here who writes a song will do their best to sing it as well as they can and record the result as best they can. They will then probably mix the track as best they can under the various constraints of time/ability/money/facilities/knowledge etc in order to create their own songs. Good luck to them all and gawd bless everyone for putting their assets on the line. It must be so much easier to grab a mic when you know you are going to sound great.

In an ideal world, I'd like to hear a great song with a great vocal but I think - on a songwriters forum - It's more about the song than the singer.

And if it needs a perfect vocal...doesn't it also need perfect lyrics? A perfect melody?

Anyway...a great discussion...one of the best we've had here...thanks for all the input from everyone 😃

[adamfarr]

All pretty interesting and quite a range of opinion out there. Tuning seems to get an especially bad rap - why should it be regarded any differently to EQ, compression, reverb...?

As an "improving" singer I have to say I prefer my own vocals with a bit of tuning where needed (though some days it seems that, as Jason Derulo almost said, It's only needed when I'm breathing...). For those that are more in the Harry Kane league then there may be more options!