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Tuned Vocals

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Cawproductions

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« on: February 16, 2020, 01:45:39 PM »
Hi all.
I am bracing myself for an onslaught of possible abuse here.

Question: Do most lower end DAWS (ie, not the pro versions) come with some sort of Vocal tuning.

I hear so many great songs in the amateur arena and most of them have pitchy vocals in places.
It got me thinking, as the vocal is mostly the focal point of a track why do people not spend time to fix slight errors.
Is it because tuning software is pricey or some Daws dont come with even a basic version of this or people just dont do it as it takes a lot time to do accurately.

Or simply that people dont like tuned vocals, now I am not talking about the horrific Cher thing or some guy called T payne..just minor pitch fixes on phrases.

Ok, whooooaaa, I am no pro singer and my vocal needs a TON of work...Turds and Polishing springs to mind here.

On a rainy Sunday afternoon, it got me wondering.

Happy Sunday people.

pompeyjazz

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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2020, 02:06:40 PM »
Hi @Cawproductions Reaper comes with it's own built in tuner, Reatune. There are automatic and manual modes. I have used it on occasions mainly in manual mode as I've found that auto mode can produce some unexpected results. It's pretty fiddly to get right though and I'm guessing that's why a lot of people dont use it. Interesting thread Andy

cowparsleyman

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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2020, 04:43:27 PM »
Interesting thread...

I wouldn’t know if the cheaper daws have it, but even if they did it’s not always something that is felt to be necessary, as some vocalists can’t hear that they are out of tune, i one had a heated discussion with someone that swore blind they were completely in tune when they were way way off.

Yip i do use melodyne from time to time and yes it’s complicated and time consuming but very very effective and pretty expensive. I always recommend it as the results are invisible and lovely Perfecly aligned harmonies above ones range are completely achievable, they can sound female if the formant is tweaked upwards a tad.

It suppose it depends on whether it’s a priority, as you say, some songs sound better with a bit of edgey realism.

Its so difficult to sing in tune, especially if it’s at the limit of ones range....




rightly

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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2020, 06:15:56 PM »
Yes. Really interesting.
I think the vocal can have some edge.
But too much edge will ruin a fine song.

The difference between some and too much is decided differently by different people. 
It's quite tricky. I'm learning all the time, everytime I produce.

It's either this or that, then again it might be the other. 

I can promise you a future of slow decline.

Don't eat the yellow snow

And there you have it. 

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Cawproductions

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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2020, 07:11:48 PM »
Hi guys, Thanks for all getting involved.

IMHO, every vocal needs some tuning work to sound "Polished", I have watched documentaries on professional singers that have recorded the most amazing vocal, Then when the engineer adds the subtle tuning, then and only then do you hear that magic.

I guess what I am saying is that our ear will handle a very slight error in tuning then after that it sounds out of tune but when its bang on, we instantly feel that its right.

But, hey, i like vocals to be accurate in pitch but i can appreciate that different styles do not always demand this.

Like i meantioned before, I am defo not the best singer on here but I do like my vocal pitch to be as close as poss. Its a style thing.

Thanks again guys, interesting to get other peoples opinion.



PaulAds

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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2020, 07:27:57 PM »
I was thinking about this yesterday.

I'm in the middle of trying to write 14 songs in February (February album writing month or FAWM) which is pretty hard work.

I've written a few songs in one day...recorded all the parts and then written lyrics to go with them...and when it came to record the vocal...i genuinely didn't know how to sing it as i hadn't even actually heard the song before. It just made me realise that the generally accepted key to being able to do things really well is through repetition.

I nearly always record a vocal as soon as I have figured how i want it to go...and in the excitement of having made a new song...I invariably think i'll go back and record it properly...but hardly ever do. Which is a bit daft really because as you say, the vocal can be super important. My usual cop-out is that all my stuff is just amateur demos and if anyone actually needed a better vocal, i could always do one. I don't like to get bogged down, though...so i tend to plough through them and move on.

The real dream, if any of us have one,  i guess, is that one of our songs might get picked up by an established artist...and they'd do their own far better version anyway...so i don't worry about it because (A) I'm more likely to be ran over by Prince Phillip giving the Queen a piggy-back and (B) As long as I can make a demo sound of a reasonable enough quality for the song to be heard properly...I'll settle for that.

If I was trying to write with a view to selling any of my songs...I'd perhaps have to bust my buttons a bit more...but I'm not.
heart of stone, feet of clay, knob of butter

Cawproductions

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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2020, 07:39:37 PM »
Hi Paul,
Fair comment,
yeh I agree, most of us in here are putting out good quality Demos. I had not thought of it that way.

For Mikey and myself, we market our tracks to media companies and offer them for sync and licencing so I put a lot of effort into getting them the best I can. its important for us to offer the very best quality we can achieve, both mix wise and musicaly.

But yes certainly as songwriters, prob not a major factor.

Great chat everyone.


Neil C

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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2020, 07:00:03 PM »
To answer the original question with sonar cakewalk studio I get melodyne 4. I’ve also bought a wavestune, not sure vin I’ve ever used it, and I tops nectar has some pitch correction in it.
But to be honest I only occasionally delve into melodynes world, a lord knows I need it, because it’s fiddly to use and whilst it sounds corrected it still can sound a bit artificial.

So I try and then decide I’d be better off trying to get a better vocal take..
I want to sound natural without pitchyness, so had so vocal lessons, which I now need to apply consistently :-(
Neil
songwriter of no repute..

adamfarr

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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2020, 07:24:17 PM »
I tune everything. Always. I don't think you can hear the tuning much - but you can definitely hear the offness without. I can't bear to release something that isn't as good as I can make it... which may still fall down in comparison to others but that's not the point... And yes, I think everyone has access to a more or less good tuning plugin for free so they should learn how to use it (took me a while to actually figure it out!)

rightly

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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2020, 02:01:37 AM »
I was thinking about this yesterday.

I'm in the middle of trying to write 14 songs in February (February album writing month or FAWM) which is pretty hard work.

I've written a few songs in one day...recorded all the parts and then written lyrics to go with them...and when it came to record the vocal...i genuinely didn't know how to sing it as i hadn't even actually heard the song before. It just made me realise that the generally accepted key to being able to do things really well is through repetition.

I nearly always record a vocal as soon as I have figured how i want it to go...and in the excitement of having made a new song...I invariably think i'll go back and record it properly...but hardly ever do. Which is a bit daft really because as you say, the vocal can be super important. My usual cop-out is that all my stuff is just amateur demos and if anyone actually needed a better vocal, i could always do one. I don't like to get bogged down, though...so i tend to plough through them and move on.

The real dream, if any of us have one,  i guess, is that one of our songs might get picked up by an established artist...and they'd do their own far better version anyway...so i don't worry about it because (A) I'm more likely to be ran over by Prince Phillip giving the Queen a piggy-back and (B) As long as I can make a demo sound of a reasonable enough quality for the song to be heard properly...I'll settle for that.

If I was trying to write with a view to selling any of my songs...I'd perhaps have to bust my buttons a bit more...but I'm not.


This is an interesting thread.

And an excellent post there from @PaulAds.
Stunningly talented and modest. Interesting point there with repeating the exercises, not sure if I can agree with it though.

It's strange, I like queen and john cale but although I find freddy's voice amazing at times I find cales voice more interesting.

It is a dream I have that an established artist takes a song of mine and makes it a massive earner (for me) 
In more sober moments though I know there are so very many talented composers about, if ever I write that dream song, the odds anything will come of it in a commercial way are incredibly slight.
I dont consider it a healthy dream.

A girlfriend recently asked how long I wanted to continue with songwriting.
I told, her, I dunno, at a guess, for as long as I'm physically capable.
She went quietly angry. Talking was never her forte. The end of that relationship was a relief.
I want to move in the non commercial direction. I'm having a great and challenging time of it creatively. I dare say becoming the best writing musician one can be doesn't necessarily increase ones chances of finding commercial success.

It's either this or that, then again it might be the other. 

I can promise you a future of slow decline.

Don't eat the yellow snow

And there you have it. 

https://soundcloud.com/2rightly

https://soundcloud.com/rightly

Boydie

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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2020, 08:30:13 AM »
The most interesting thing I find about tuning vocals (and I am a Melodyne ninja!) is finding the “golden nugget” bits of vocals that are technically “off pitch” but sound great and add character to the vocal performance

So I guess my personal approach is that I tend to always do a vocal tuning pass BUT I don’t tune every vocal - and have even nudged a few “off pitch” to achieve a certain vibe

I agree 100% with @Neil C about the vocal PERFORMANCE being the most important thing - but if tuning the vocals (or using compression, eq, effects etc.) can ENHANCE the performance and increase the emotional impact of the song then I would not hesitate to use any tool available to me
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The S

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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2020, 12:37:09 PM »
Hmm, I have to say off the bat that I truly dislike all sorts of tuning devices on the vocals. I'm a firm believer that you continue to track the vocals until you have a solid take. This is my stance 2020 and have been for a lot of years. To me, it makes for greater life in the recording.

Now, with that said, once upon a time when I did work in the industry, I was an avid user of them all. To the degree that I feel I was part of the whole downfall of what I think the recording process is all about today. When auto-tune first arrived we all just freaked out!!! You know, suddenly you could fix it in the mix?!! Today, it's way too much devices fixing average to downright awful performances. I don't think it's good, and absolutely not necessary, not on a personal level and not for the business. This is just how I personally feel.

In the beginning, it was supposed to help you fix stuff that wasn't fixable, in that sense I can understand and approve of it, a note here and there fine, but today it sets the standard for what we believe is normal. It's used on everything. On whole takes. Even on takes that absolutely needs no fixing. Today you can hardly release a song without having the vocals tuned or tampered with, because listeners expect it to be that way. Their ears are accustomed to it.

I believe we're going in the wrong direction, and I believe music is taking the hit for it.

Hehe, damn, apparently I feel strongly about this subject.

So in summary, if it's used sparsely and where need be, sure, but that's not where we're at as of today unfortunately.

I give you an example. Here's a great singer and a great song. One acoustic version and a studio version. In the studio version, there's absolutely no need for his vocals to go through auto tune and whatnot, the overall result and all it's doing is taking the life of his natural performance. On the contrary, they would 've benefitted far more if they'd stayed away from all unnecessary effects, the usual suspects, and been brave enough producers to boldly capture his natural performance which is stunning. Please do compare the two versions, I believe there's a significant difference.

FWIW, my 0.2

//Peter

Studio:


Acoustic:
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 12:44:22 PM by The S »

Cawproductions

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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2020, 02:34:08 PM »
Hi all.

very interesting to hear everyones opinion.
I guess my original post was mainly aimed at very Amateur performers, Bedroom producers, players etc. Like a lot of us in here.

I never understand why you wouldnt a vocal to be pleasing to the ear and a slightly pitchy vocal troubles our musical emotions. Does mine anyway.
I do agree that a great perfomance that is fixed up pitch wise, will always sound better than a lifeless perfectly tuned one.

In a professional world, you would be working with the best talent, retaking to get that perfect vocal (or the best on the day), best gear etc,  but dont think I am alone in saying that our hobbies/obsessions only start when our days jobs are finished.

I run melodyne everytime and listen for anything thats not right, I never just select all then move to pitch because the little blob isnt on the correct line. Thats a recipe for disaster. Also I never use the auto pitch on main vocals but I do on backing  Vocals, usually tuning hardish.....

Still, if only I was S**t hot at singing I wouldnt need all this stuff. Pahahaha

Andy


The S

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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 03:21:30 PM »
I never understand why you wouldnt a vocal to be pleasing to the ear

To clarify.

Neither do I.

But standard procedure today, at home or pro studio, is to use pitch correction tools way too early in the process, instead of going the extra mile for a better take.

Sadly, the more lifeless result it generates is widely accepted today.

Therein lies my problem.

Aiming for a perfect vocal take, pleasing to the ear, is nothing I have a problem with. On the contrary. I think it's crucial.

Ah well, pitch correction tools, overused as they are today, I think it's a dangerous path that's all. A path I believe we'd all be better off if it were treaded more lightly.

All the best,

//Peter

« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 04:00:17 PM by The S »

The S

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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2020, 05:13:00 PM »
In a professional world, you would be working with the best talent,

Oh I wish that was true, hehe, you'd be surprised how that is not the case. Back in the day, I've worked with artists that haven't been able to produce a single note in pitch. How so? Because everybody and their mother believed we could fix it later with the very tools we are talking about in this thread.

In a few cases it's true. You work with true talent, and it is a blessing. But in most cases, especially just below stardom, artists who's trying to make it and haven't already, which is the majority, the industry thinks everything is fixable, as long as you look good and can produce some sort of sound when you open your mouth you're good to go.

It was a few years back and it was crazy but I have a notion nothing has changed since.

/Peter