[Laup]

Hi

I am looking for a songwriting book which is quite heavy on music theory and useful tips for songwriting.

Many thanks,

Paul

[Royston]

Hi

There's three books that are worth a look

1. Inside The Art Of Songwriting - Jimmy Webb (I have This one)
2. Six Steps to Songwriting Success - Jason Blume
3. Craft And Business of Songwriting - John Braheny

Hope these might be of some help.

Cheers
 

[Boydie]

@Laup

Music theory is really difficult to learn from a book

I would suggest checking out a structure online course (rather than random YouTube videos)

I would really recommend this course:
https://www.shawacademy.com/courses/music/learn-music-theory-practice-online/

You would then end up with a formal qualification as well (Diploma in Music), which is always nice to have

You may also want to check out this post that relates to a podcast that a few of us on the forum did a few years ago:

http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=9447.0

Unfortunately I do not think the actual podcast is available but I describe the key points of chord theory for songwriters


Finally, if you are looking to write commercially viable songs then I can also recommend the book  "Six Steps to Songwriting Success" by Jason Blume

[cowparsleyman]

Music theory has a reputation for being a bit dry, and very difficult, much depends on the instruments(s) you’ll be applying the theory to.

I can only speak from my experience, I taught myself to Grade V theory (ABRSM) with no outside help, i just started with grade 1 is really basic but take your time and don’t move on until you honestly understand what you have done. There is a work book and a couple of text books that accompany the exercise books.

Don’t expect to do it quickly, about a few months  per grade, (for me anyway...a bear of little brain)...

i would  recommend that you apply what you learn to your instrument, and in the early days forget the songwriting bit, if you are a guitarist there’s a couple of good books on how to read the dots on a guitar by Had Leonard...

Over the years I have taught  people how to play guitar and how to read the dots and very very few stick at it.

Once you know the dot you’re putting your finger on the fretboard , then you’re cooking.

Then once you understand the relationship between the staff, the dots and what your fingers are doing, the songwriting bit will be much much easier...

I can also recommend learning drum notation which much easier and sharpens up ones understanding of rhythm of your regular music theory.

Taking classical lessons with a good teacher brings all of these things together but knowing theory before you go makes it much easier.

Best of luck.

[shadowfax]

I think it's also important to note that to write songs you do not need any music theory..

[Sing4me88]

I wouldn't totally discount the value of YouTube videos. I guess it all depends on what your aims are; is it to learn theory for theory's sake or is it to learn it to apply to songwriting in a particular genre/style or as a particulate artist does? If it is the former, then there's plenty of books that others have listed (and more) that will help. However, if it's to learn to write/produce like a particular artist or in modern pop then YouTube really is your friend. There's channels lie Beat Academy, Make Pop Music etc that break down different artists' styles, and there's social media like Top 40 theory, Dark Music theory etc that are very consumable (especially if you are a learner who learns best while 'seeing' rather than 'reading'). Also, the age old method of simply listening to and studying whats in the charts still holds firm today - perhaps even more so given sites/software like Hooktheory Pad make this all the easier.

Just to echo others, music theory isn't a prerequisite for songwriting or producing. Sure it can certainly help, but it can also be an unhelpful limitation when you try to stick to 'rules' rather than going by what your ear tells you sounds good. I fund that the best thing as to just jump in at the deep end and play about in a DAW, then progress slowly to sampling with loops/cutting samples etc. Even if there's a limit to what you can achieve on your own with this, you'll at least be better placed to collab with others with different skill sets if nothing else.

[Boydie]

Just to echo others, music theory isn't a prerequisite for songwriting or producing. Sure it can certainly help, but it can also be an unhelpful limitation when you try to stick to 'rules' rather than going by what your ear tells you sounds good.

@Sing4me88
Whilst I completely agree with the sentiment of what you are seeing I think it is a bit of a “myth” that learning music theory somehow makes you less creative or is a limitation

I would argue that the same could be true from NOT learning music theory - if you simply love by the notion of going with what “sounds good” you could be restricting yourself to “the norm” or songwriting cliches (not that I am saying there is anything wrong with that)

Learning theory can help you understand “the rules”, which is a pre-requisite to breaking the rules

I agree that sticking to rules can be limiting but don’t agree that learning music theory leads to this

[PeteS]

I did a lot of music theory as a kid but I don't think I use any of that now.  I may have used it over the years to learn what I know now and therefore it may influence how I play and how I write.  But it's subconscious if it's there.
 
Unless you are a musical genius then it definitely has a place, but we need to not be robots and allow our natural flair and creativity flow.  Not that I'm saying I've got much of that 

[MonnoDB]

Interesting discussion..

I studied music theory as a kid - very formal classes up to grade 8 & diploma level - but I’m fairly sure I use none of it when writing songs. As in I never consciously choose a chord or progression based on the key I’m in (for example). I just play what sounds good to me.

In fact I’m never aware of what key I’m writing in. ... (although I know I do gravitate towards a few based on my range/comfort zone).

I’m fairly sure I break the rules all the time - unless of course we’re talking jazz theory / rules where there’s a justification for nearly any combination!! Actually the theory I learned back in the day was only a fraction of what I’ve learned from a jazz piano teacher a few years ago. Or maybe I had just forgotten loads...

Where I do find I use it is in arranging when playing with others after the song has been written.. as in what works with what when layering instruments etc.

K

[Boydie]

but we need to not be robots and allow our natural flair and creativity flow.  Not that I'm saying I've got much of that

I don’t mean to go on about it but I have always been fascinated by this perpetual notion that learning music theory, or learning to read music, somehow stifles creativity or turns people in to robots

I can’t think of many other areas where learning the “craft” or theory of something is somehow seen as detrimental

It is like an artist not learning to draw; or learn things like perspective, lighting and composition

It is like a photographer not learning about shutter speeds or aperture settings

It is like a carpenter not learning how to use a chisel or learn about joints

Why is it that “music”, especially “songwriting”, has this dogma that learning music theory somehow makes you less creative?

This is a genuine interest/question and not meant as a criticism of anyone

Do you think it stems back to the Beatles?

In a 1980 interview with Playboy magazine, John Lennon said, “None of us could read music… None of us can write it. But as pure musicians, as inspired humans to make the noise, they [Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr] are as good as anybody.”

Or do you think it relates to the notion of “formulaic pop” - eg Stock Aitken Waterman in the 80s?

I still stand by the notion that NOT learning music theory can make you LESS creative because if you only go by what “sounds good to you” then you are MORE likely to be following the “rules” without knowing them (even if you think you have discovered the I, IV, V chord sequence on your own)

Learning theory can help you understand  the rules and therefore help you break out of them to be truly creative

It is interesting to read the last few posts where @PeteS and @MonnoDB have previously learnt the rules but forgotten (or adsorbed) them

I think this is a really good place to be as you can just write without thinking about the rules - BUT - if you “paint yourself in to a corner” you can use the theory to get out OR you are able to recognise if you are becoming “cliche”

The other big factor, alluded to by @MonnoDB is that EVERYTHING you do musically, no matter how creative you think you are being, can be explained by music theory - eg why something sounds “bad” or “good” - which I prefer to describe in songwriting terms as “tension” and “release”, which I think all good songs need - so just using your ears for what sounds “good” may mean your songs don’t have any “tension”

My take on all of this is:

Being CREATIVE is deciding the destination, MUSIC THEORY gives you the map to get there

Eg - you can stumble across a new destination by accident that is amazing - and a map is helpful to show you where you, how you got there and how to get there again

If there is a destination you want to get to (eg you hear a specific section of a song you really like) a map will help you get there quicker (eg you can work out the theory of what they were doing in their song and borrow it for yours)

[PeteS]

Hi Boydie,

I did sort of expect that reaction from some members.

I can read music and did a number of theory exams in my youth, and I wouldn't be without that knowledge now.  I just feel that having that creative spark is the most important thing, without that you have very little to build on. 

For me, there are a few geniuses in the world who need little knowledge to create masterpieces.  For the rest of us, we need to grab as much knowledge as possible and use it to the best of our ability.  Just don't be stifled by it.

Theory on its own (as with much technical knowledge) is boring, it has to be bought to life in some way.  Take the teaching music.  If you teach in an old fashioned boring way, you will turn off most kids.  My youngest isn't inspired to play guitar yet but he can play a little.  He has had 3 teachers at school, the middle one fired him up and gave him a passion that I can't recreate.  When he moved on, Dan just turned off.  He will come back to it at some point but for now the guitar sits in the corner and gathers dust.  When inspired, he will pick it up and learn technique and knowledge with joy but for now, the approach taken is boring him.

I hope that in a few years he will be playing for fun and will have accumulated theory knowledge as well as practical, but for now, I just wish he would play.

[Dazzathedrummer]

Hi,

I can highly recommend RSL's Music Theory grades - I've got grade 8 myself. I sat the exam quite recently (2016) because I wanted to write but didn't have enough knowledge of music to be able to create on my own - fine with a band, I would just hum a riff or a chord sequence and a guitarist or keyboard player could figure out what I was getting at, but on my own I didn't have much of a clue.
Now I happily right horn sections, string sections - anything really, nothing phases me.

It's helped me as now when I get the creative spark, I can hit the keyboard and get something down exactly as I imagined it rather than scratching my head and eventually loosing the idea.

Here's the link to RSL...
https://www.rslawards.com/rockschool/graded-exams/music-theory/

There are two theory books, the first one goes up to grade 5 and the second up to grade 8 ...and there are exercise books for each grade - you don't need to do the exams and you don't need to do them in sequence - It might be worth checking out the first theory book.