[cowparsleyman]

@Rightly was just saying he doesn't want to evaluate his excellent 'Mask' song, he just wants to move on...

It made me think of  me of the tortuous route a song and it's writer have to go, and how the love for each other is tested on the way...

Scratching about for ideas, lyrics, melodies, then
finalising the arrangement and structure, then
practising it, then teaching it to the Band then
Recording it, maybe the producer wants to do something different...then
rehearsing it as it needs to be gigged, then
gigging with it.

It must be heard hundreds of times, certainly my songs are, before I let them loose on you guys. There is a lot of emotional and sometimes monetary capital invested in these collection of dots, so how does one keep the love for them?

There is no guarantee that anyone else will like it 

What do you think?

Rich

[Skub]

Yo CPM. Cool topic and I daresay there will be many different views.

I'll give you my perspective on the subject. 

Maybe I'm just lucky,but I've never had to struggle for a song.From an initial idea most songs are completed in days,sometime less. The odd occasion that a project refuses to take shape quickly,I'll set it aside and usually rediscover it by accident some time!

The finalising/mixing I do take longer over,just because ears get tired and stop hearing,so I'll let a song settle for a while,then listen again. I also regard myself as a learner in the producing process. I've never been interested in all the techniques and gear,all I ever wanted was enough knowledge to be dangerous. 

I haven't played my original songs in a band format since early 1990s,in fact when that band folded,I walked away from anything original and didn't write a song for over 20 years,I just played for money. When I stopped playing live (almost 3 years ago) that's when I began to write again and although I had my doubts as to whether I still could,once again it was no struggle.

Maybe a struggle for folks listening. 

I don't plan on playing live ever again,I prefer to just write and record rather than hump gear at 3am. So that part of the process doesn't apply to me. I do miss playing in a working band,but not that much.  I mostly miss the good money! 

Producer? Now you are having a laugh! 

Practicing? I don't ever practice playing or songs. I just play. When I record a song,I forget it and move on. I couldn't even tell you what key most of my old songs are in,because I'm done with them and I'll never play them again.

With regard to others liking my songs,it's really nice when they do,but I don't kid myself that my doodling matter at all in the grand scheme of things. Primarily,it's just something in me and it needs to come out.

A bit like taking a dump,it has to happen man,or you'll get backed up. 

[rightly]

My most recent songs I've usually found the heart of quite quickly and if it's a good one I'll return to it until it's finished.

I seem to be taking a break lately but ideas are stirring

In the past sometimes writing a song might take 10days or more rarely 10 years.

Other songs might just have enough for a verse, or one refrain and I'll shelve them.
N maybe pull them out again if they have something, or suddenly seem relevant.

If I take a song n finish it, I still won't bother that much with the production, though this is gradually changing.
If I take a song the whole course I won't care much at all whether someone else takes to the finished version.
When they do it's a satisfying plus and I feel connected n thats great but not my aim, if they don't I might not even realise and I'll vaguely regard the whole thing as a success.
For me it's a personal thing.
I might, albeit rarely learn to play a cover, however arduous I usually drop these covers quite quickly (unfortunately).

I've derived satisfaction from covering, playing loud n live...
Going to a town, Ruthus Wainwright.
You have killed me, morrissey.

On both these occasions I've changed or improved the words n music, more or less to suit m'self.

If a writer has originality, I don't think it necessary that he flaunt it on every occaision, if he does, then that's his business.
But someone who has none of it (originality) but dreams of becoming a perfect imitator, such a one might disregard original material simply because it doesn't sound grunge, or Ed sheeran, or tom waits enough. .. Well these people are, simply put, are less than a Dj (better to be a tasteful, passive listener).
I've no respect for imitators, when they get in my way I hate them, when they don't I don't perceive them. 

What I deplore and sometimes what tortures me, is if a song has heart
and life gets in the way and I fail to record it,
it's at these times when I feel truly robbed.

Sorry if I got off topic.

[cowparsleyman]

@Rightly & @Skub - Interesting responses from you both, although a little different.

This post stems from one particular studio session I did many years ago when I had a full 24hrs of listening to a single over and over and over again literally hundreds of times, at volumes from ENORMOUS to very quite, and I was so tired I was stopping at green lights on  the drive home, any creativity I had just disappeared.

For me the playing for money thing was'nt very satisfying, and reminded me of Bill Nelson (one of my heroes) giving up commercialism of be bop deluxe for a guilt free life, he once said that "I was throwing punches, but not hitting anyone", like you Skub, I really enjoy doing my own stuff, if other like it, then that's nice.

I'm taking MUCH more care in the writing process now, I have learnt quite a bit from this forum, @Boydie (just wanted you to know, thanks Man) a song is a precious, precious thing, so when you launch it, it should be very seaworthy.

I listen . prepare . listen. write .listen . listen . plan . chop . listen until I'm happy. And I'm much fussier about the arrangement than I used to be, This might be the stage where I listen to it hundreds of times, just moving it from the mixing and production stage.

As an aside about practising - Davy, I managed grade 8 classical guitar a few years ago, and I practised 3 pieces 2 hours a day for 18 months, and could feel the waves of enthusiasm ebb and flow, but it never bothered me, but one of the things I did learn from grd 8 was the difference between when you think it's ready and when it's actually performance ready, a country mile in most cases.

With regards to covers, it's a rare thing for me these days, I think the last one I did was a very sparse 'Dive' by Ed Sheeran, they just seem such a waste of time, as you could be writing your own original stuff, and feel great about it.

I can totally feel that sense of being robbed Rightly, I never let that happen, I capture them all, I record the ideas on my phone, park it then when life gets out of the way, I bring it back to life.

Anyway, here's me going off topic.

Nice to share views gents.

Rich

[Cawproductions]

Hi all.

Here's my two penneth
Once myself or @Mikey get an idea, we just record sections or all the way, then I normally bang in a sketchy demo vocal. After that we take a step back and listen, arrange, look and see how the dynamics of that track will flow, when and where to ramp things up and chill things down.

Once thats kinda sketched out, I lay markers down on the track and we think about what instruments, amp patches, drum fills, kit types etc.
Building as we go,

As I am more of a producer engineer kinda guy than a musician, I like to wrap my ears around the whole thing, front to back. And maybe ask myself, If I was the listener, what would I want the track to do.

Once all the parts are in, add vocals, Plus backing vocals and harmonies...

THEN, Its mixing time...This can take me a week or 2 months, I get very fussy, much to mike despair, over snare drum sounds, fizzy hi hats, Low sub bass, too much bass, not enough bass........Bahhhh.

THEN I NEED A BREAK, for about a week or two to try and forget about the track.

Mastering:
Lots of referencing, while mastering.

Hopefully then we have something that will compare to a pro track.

But yeh, CPM, I get thoroughly P**ssed off with the sound of the final track by the time it hits the forum, start doubting myself if the track is any good at all.

You are not alone if you get fed up with a track by during the process. Its a common thing. Thats why they say about making templates and getting things done quickly as this reduces the chance of getting sick of the tune.

Andy

[cowparsleyman]

Hi @Cawproductions - Nice to hear from you, that's so interesting that you are more of a producer than a musician, I wonder if it helps me more that I'm a bit of both. I like your phase "Wrap my ears around the whole thing", that describes how I feel about it, from both sides.

I also, like you, never forget about the listener, moreover I tend to consider the fan of the genre, so what would a metal fan really dig at the end of a chorus, or should the BVox be up in the mix on an edm song as opposed to a folk  Bee based tune for example.

If I think that a song is really good, has big strong legs, even from the beginning, then I don't ever get tired of hearing it, as it's the evolution process wearing both hasts that keeps me excited, and it's really useful to be able to chnage something as a musician, and then incorporate it as a producer.

Sometimes it's the not very oft discussed hat that is ignored, the arranger, this to me is the key twixt musician and producer, a well produced, well played song that is totally incorrectly arranged, is one destined for not reaching it's full potential.

With regards to templates and multi fx presets, I'm already a keen protagonist of both of those, saves soooo much time, especially on drums.

2 months for a track, that's cool, one hears of LA producers mixing an album in a week, but for me (a lowly cpm without golden ears) it takes as long as the song needs, sometimes, like a painting, it's difficult to know when it's finished.

In this forum, I have heard many songs that played, arranged, mixed and produced to pro level. So what's the difference in pro level songs?

I beleive it's a team effort, if you look at the credits on a song, there are for more than just the musicians and prodcuers involved, also it's sometimes the mastering that makes a huge difference, and maybe the fact that often pros do the whole thing using top level equipment and at 95hkz instead of 44, low noise all the way through, specially designed studios, control rooms and monitors to die for, but also I've heard great songs played into a iphone, the sound quality is awful, but it's the the song that gets the deal, not the production.

Just a quick note about taking breaks, recently Cowparsleywoman has been making me break, yesterday was pumpkin day, so I called it Peter Pumpkinhead (a great song by XTC about American presidents - very apt these days)

Anyway... more off topic....bye for now.

Rich