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Freedom Fighters - Featuring RedRhodie

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Darren1664

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« on: May 19, 2018, 04:15:32 PM »
Hi all

I posted this song in unfinished feedback section and got some excellent advice from the forum. The consensus was to add something extra to the second half to give it a little something extra...and shortly after @redrhodie (Lynn) offered to do some backing vocals. I of course jumped on the opportunity and she nailed it! I think her BVs are fab and add the something the song was lacking.

This world can be a mighty cruel and suffering place, especially for those down the pecking order. I think us humans often look at ourselves and our actions and think that we cause a lot of the suffering. It's probably true but this song is about whatever crazy force brought it all about in the first place and made suffering such a key factor in life. It seems a design flaw to me and we have no choice but to accept it....or join the Freedom Fighters  ;) .....

OLD MIX: https://soundcloud.com/user-41129754/freedom-fighters-v6-mix-2/s-28OFe

NEW MIX: https://soundcloud.com/user-41129754/freedom-fighters

Freedom Fghters
Sat down for lunch, I glance out the window
a bird stood on a ledge looking in at me says
'hey man could you spare me some feed?
it's been two days since I've had something to eat'
Well I looked at him blank as my teeth sank
Into their footlong BLT

Hey now, what's the deal?
Survival of the fittest is the one who gets the meal?
So what about the rest of us trying to get by
waiting in line for the next one to die?
It doesn't seem fair to a bird like me that
some get it tough while others get it easy

Some get it tough while others get it easy

Come fight for the freedom fighters
We’ll fight for the freedom fighters
Let’s fight for the freedom fighters
Go fight for the freedom fighters

Come fight for the freedom fighters
Go fight for the freedom fighters

In terms of feedback I am mostly interested in the mix. I struggle with it, I really do. So any tips much appreciated. I know I haven't done the best of jobs but it's a long shot from where I started and with each review I learn a little. And...if anyone fancies having a mix just let me know.

MASSIVE thank you to @redrhodie !!

All the best

Darren
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 06:20:33 PM by Darren1664 »

cowparsleyman

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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2018, 08:25:39 PM »
Hi Darren

Great job, it's also wo0nderful that you went away after the comments and did something, now it's down to us that suggested the idea to review it again, here goes. (I'm listening on my tracking Cans, so they are a bit bass heavy)

Lynn as you say nailed it, did you notice that it's much more interesting with the Female BVox.. lot more going to retain the listener's interest. You said that you want mixing advice, so I will.

My first impression early on is that the LVox are too low in the Mix, and the BVox are too high, the rhythm guitars are too close to the centre, so maybe bring them out so they are tucked in just a bit out of the way of the BVox, they are nearly right, but with mixing one has to be really really picky, db here, a nudge there makes a big difference, think of it like moving your furniture around at home there is a place where everything fits.

When eq ing have wide Q values when adding and narrow when subtracting.

Your LVox needs to jump out of the mix, a few db @ 4-6k then go, this will make the Vox more pronouced, add a bit of 16k wirh a wide Q value then compress the Lvox not much, you'll have to bring up the level after you've compressed it. You could just make the LVox louder but, you don't want to do that, you just want the Vox to have it's own space, the Compression will take out the peaks and then give you a chance to make it louder with increasing the output gain from the compressor.

The best thing is to try it on a copy of the track, so you don't knacker anything.

Drums - I can't hear the kick drum at all, that also could do with some EQ to bring that out, but it sounds like it's not on a separate track, the stereo width of the drums is quite narrow, also maybe a bit more HF EQ on the ride cymbal.

One the Master buss stick a tiny amount of reverb and a tad of compression, but not much.

If you are able to save mix snapshots in your DAW try that out so you can hear the differences, if you can't do this then save each version with a date and time so you know the difference.

The lead guitar could benefi from some kind of fx, maybe a tad of delay, but again not much, just enough that you'd notice it were it not there, so many folk drown things in FX because they can
, if you listen very carefully to pro tracks, sometimes you don't even know there are fx on a track until the guitar or a Vocalist stops, THEN you can hear it.

With Compression and EQ be bold - try the extremes so you can hear what not to do, and how the settings chnage the sound to each track, then use them sparingly, and very often the solo'd track doesn't sound right, but when the rest of the tracks are together it just sounds right.

With the BVox you have so much more to work with.

Hope this helps, I'll listen out to the next iteration with interest

cpm



« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 10:32:59 PM by cowparsleyman »

diademgrove

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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2018, 04:17:57 PM »
Hi Darren,

reminds me of Iggy Pop and The Stooges, definitely a good thing.

I thought the lead vocal could have been a little louder in some places but not in others. If you have automation you could try tweaking the vocal, a bit louder, here, a little lower there.

I liked the guitar solo. I'd have tried to make it a little louder through cutting the EQ of the rhythm guitar a little where it competes with the EQ of the lead. A bit of trial and error but it should pop out and grab your attention.

My biggest problem with the song is the abrupt stop. It doesn't seem to go with the words or music. It sort of suggests all the freedom fighters are dead so why bother. That may just be me though. I wanted it to go on for another 2 or three minutes.

@redrhodie has definitely added to the song.

Looking forward to your next song,

Keith

steevm

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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 04:34:09 PM »
Agree with the above.

Your rhythm guitar is saturating the mix with frequencies you don't need, so EQ it a bit to create some room for the other elements. Let the bass poke through in the lows and where the noise of the string's attack is (normally 1.5-2.5KHz, depending on the recording). You probably want to take out some of the mids on the bass, as it sounds rather mid-heavy right now. That, together with the guitars and vocals is causing you issues with the mix sounding cluttered in the mids.

After creating some space there, bring the kick out a lot more. Like the bass guitar, the kick has a clicky attack in the higher frequencies and a thud down low. If you bring out that click with EQ, the kick will punch through more. You want the bass guitar and kick such that one of them is providing the very low bass oomph, and one of them is ~1 octave higher. Where you want to EQ will depend on the fundamental of your kick and the bass line. If you bring them out at the same frequencies, it tends to sound pretty ick and messy. In general, bringing out the bass guitar on the second fundamental is a good idea, as our ears tend to fill in the root automatically. Having the bass come through in the lower mids will also help the bass come through on smaller speakers with no bass response.

The vocals also want a bit of EQ on them to remove some resonance - listen to the backing vocals at 2:31 for example and how that sounds. You want to clean that up. A good technique is to boost with a narrow EQ and sweep through the frequency spectrum until you hear something ugly. Then cut that. Similarly, if a particular frequencies brings out a positive quality of a track, you might want to boost it a bit.

PaulyX

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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2018, 07:29:04 PM »
Yay!  I like this!  Especially the backing vocals, the appearance of the drums, and the overall stoner-rock scuzziness of it.  I could imagine Lemmy singing it.  Your two voices are an unusual combination that works well.
It's all too beautiful.

redrhodie

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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 01:27:47 PM »
Hi guys. Thanks for the kind words on my background vocals. I'm really glad you like them. I had heard Darren's song in works in progress, really liked it, but thought it needed some more voices on the chorus, so I asked him if I could help. He generously agreed. Then when I got the mic in front of me, I couldn't stop. Haha. I'm glad you think it worked out. I had a lot of fun working on it. 

Thanks Darren!

tboswell

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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 02:27:06 PM »
Liked it, especially the chorus which works really well.
I could quite understand how the bird and the BLT related to the chorus though, it seemed like to mini songs tacked together a bit.

Production wise, @cowparsleyman is spot on of course. Do try out his suggestions.
I think with the style you are going for it is easier to think you need to get the power from the guitars. But they are just the crackle on top.
You need the kick drum and the bass really providing the power. Your kick drum is not really audible. If you listen with just the bass and drums it should have that power already before everything else is piled on. If it doesn't, all the rest won't help it when you bring all the guitars back in.

cowparsleyman

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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 03:30:50 PM »
With Harmony Vocals (HVox), it's so tempting to use all of them all the time, but think about the impact to the listener and what would benefit the song's arrangement, why am I using them? If someone like Lynn has given up their time to do some stems and then they turn out really great, one might rush in and stick em all in, but you don't have to, use a couple or four spaced out to widen choruses, and save them all for the last big Chorus.

With rock guitars, you can always have loads of takes, played on different guitars/amps/stomp boxes (make a note on the track what you used, it really helps) and this track might benefit from that approach, there is a knack to it which I haven't really bottomed out, as it's not my goto production genre. One of the best I've heard recently was @Jambrains  'I can change'.

I have this thing about kick drums, I remember being in a studio once and watching a producer and the engineer spend AGES getting the right sound just for the kick, it was an eye opener, but boy did it sound good, ever since then a kick and the snare demand a lot of attention, in the end they went and bought a beach ball and added that track to the sound too, anything goes, if it sounds great it really doesn't matter.

btw a great compressor for kick drums is the Waves dbx 160...


@tboswell - Thanks for the compliment, appreciate it.

hope this helps

cpm



Cawproductions

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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2018, 05:57:09 PM »
Hi Darren and Lynn,

Great track, Like the contrast between the two vocal parts, I really liked the wideness of Lynns Vocal.

I was waiting for it to go mental, Those drums needed to be pumping. Easy fix.

Great work on it tho, just needs some production wizardry and you have a smashing track on ya hands.

Andy

Skub

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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2018, 12:40:48 AM »
Yo Daz and Lynn

CPM has it covered with all the technical schnizzle,so I'm just gonna add the fact I liked the track. It's a belter and with some tweaks it'll be a better belter!  :D

Darren1664

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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2018, 06:43:15 PM »
@cowparsleyman @diademgrove @steevm @PaulyX @redrhodie @tboswell @Cawproductions @Skub

Hi all - just wanted to a a massive thank you for the very informative and encouraging replies and of course for taking the time to listen in the first place. The advice given here is just superb and very helpful to me. I do struggle with mixing (beginner level) so it's great to have all this to try out. I do not have a time to tinker a lot immediately but will make it a to do for me to practice and work on the mix regularly (An hour a week or something) and hopefully I will see improvements.

Based on your advice I have made some tweaks (the easier things for me to do) and I already think it sounds better (though I've likely created new issues :P). The second mix is up there for anyone interested and has the time, but please don't give up too much more as I'm sure you all have better things to be doing :P

It's been very interesting to read that the same comments were made about the mix! (here and another forum Lynn posted the track to).

I get quite frustrated with mixing and production at times and want to just smash my head against the wall but I do keep coming back to it so I must enjoy at some level :P just not my forte. I need to be keeping notes as well - where to boost, where to cut etc. Just a general guidelines to help really. With writing, recording, guitar practice, music theory and ear training it does get difficult to prioritise but something tells me I will see the best gains in bettering my mixes at this point in time. Work to be done. Anyway I'm waffling and making excuses...

Thanks again all and take care

Darren

Cawproductions

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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2018, 06:59:47 PM »
Hi Darren

All the really great info on this thread can only be taken as guidance, Exact frequencies will always change slightly with different content, styles etc.

Basically what I am saying is trust your ears and always reference against professional material.

Yeh Mixing and mastering is frustrating at times but the rewards are great.

Rock on.

Bill Saunders

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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 08:25:01 AM »
Hi Darren

I've not read the others' comments as I didn't want to be influenced in any way before giving my feedback. So, if I repeat their views, it is coincidental.

I really like the tune, the lyrics, the song - for me I heard a little of a Squeeze influence.

Production wise, I'm listening to the second version. I think that Lynn's BVs could be a bit more prominent. The lead guitar sounded as though you had a very similar setting to the the main rhythm guitar, so they clashed a bit. I try to have very distinct settings on my lead and rhythm parts - perhaps using a different (virtual) amp as a starting point. With the drums, I was struggling to hear the kick. I really used to struggle with my drum sounds, but something that has really helped me is a very simple plug in from Waves - a thing called Scheps Parallel Particles. I know you can spend a fortune on plugins, but that one has honestly helped me a lot. It is regularly on sale for about $29, but you can demo it for free.

Anyway, brilliant, original listening - really enjoyed it!

Bill


Morefrog Jones

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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2018, 12:02:31 PM »
Quirky first world problem rock tune with a catchy feel thats a bit mixed up in the direction it wants to go but still a good listen.

digger72

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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2018, 06:39:39 PM »
Hi Darren,

Cool song.
I thought the new mix was very good.
Not sure what you've incorporated from the technical advice given - but whatever you've done works well.
The two vocals compliment each other and give the song some depth.
Enjoyed the lead work.

Digger