[cowparsleyman]

Just thought I'd put this up for discussion, I often hear songs here that are just brilliant, a good song is a a good song whether it's been produced perfectly, played brilliantly or not.

One of the things that I am interested apart from lead vocals (LVox) (which are really difficult for me personally) are backing vocals (BVox) or harmony vocals HVox) I used to use these abbreviated terms on the mixer strip, there was never much space to write what the track was...

Many folk say that the LVox is the THE most important thing, but if the supporting vox are not well thought through, it can leave the most important part rather exposed, or lost struggling for air.

Do you think about these at all?
Do you plan where they will be, and what the harmony will be?
Should be Female or Male?
How many should the be?
Should they sing the same words at the same time as the LVox, delay the words, sing something else, hum, ooh, aaah?
Should you tell the vocalist what to sing or leave it to them?
Do you know your range? are you likely to 'run out' of range if you try a high HVox?
How many other elements int he song should be going on at the same time? should you 'make space of them but pulling back on the volume or move them out of the way laterally?

Additional Vox can add so much to a song and very often it's those that you sing along to...Bowie 'Golden Years' wa wa wa goooo etc. and are often misheard, (I find the Pretenders songs are impossible to understand)

Anyway I'd love to hear you views

[CaliaMoko]

I pretty much make my background vocal decisions based on what I "hear" in my head when I listen to what I've done so far. I almost always hear something in my head. I seldom do a good job of planning it out, though. I just try to duplicate what I'm "hearing".

I am partial to counterpoint styles of harmonies--that's a personal thing, probably because the Baroque period is my favorite. Or maybe it's the other way around--the Baroque period is my favorite because I like counterpoint. ??

If I have singers, I tell them what to sing. Actually, I write it. I typically write all my music, using composition software and give the singers sheet music to use.

I know my range and, if I will be singing it, I have to be careful what I write, as my range is quite limited.

Those are a few of my opinions....

[cowparsleyman]

Hi Vicki

Interesting to hear your approach, thanks for the response, found that my range has reduced over the years, and since I had my tonsils out my tuning is a bit off especially live, which has led me to not sing live recently.

Love Baroque, it's so intricate especially the prelude and Fugues, just magical how it plays so many tricks in taking one up all sorts of convoluted paths and back again then crossing over, I could listen to Bach all day.

Love the Avatar by the way

cpm

[dasntn]

Hi CPM

interesting discussion topic!

From what I've posted so far, you probably wouldn't think I pay much attention to BVs (as I've heard them called), but I do normally.
Not sure they are "planned" as such, but thought about and tried. I think where the song has an emotional, delicate vocal, they tend to be less important, but where there is a strongly sung vocal, I usually try them. 
I was lucky enough just once in my life to be part of recording a song in a top end studio in London. The producer recorded backing tracks (multiple) all through the song,and initially it almost sounded gospel, but once mixed, hardly any were left.

Sometimes I will go for a single harmony part, sometimes 2 or 3 part harmonies. Usually male vocals (me and my musical buddy both being men!), and normally towards the end of the song (later verses maybe, choruses probably, but depends what sounds right!). Usually we go for the 3rd/5th of the chord but sometimes we try something a bit more interesting. Did a sort of Sea Shanty BV once!

I'm not a big fan of oohs and ahhs, but I do quite like the BVs being separate from the Main vocal (like on California Dreaming), but used occasionally.

Still trying to work out my range - I'm not much of a singer (mostly backing vocals when playing live) and it seems to change daily!

cheers
Dave

[cowparsleyman]

Hi CPM

interesting discussion topic!

From what I've posted so far, you probably wouldn't think I pay much attention to BVs (as I've heard them called), but I do normally.
Not sure they are "planned" as such, but thought about and tried. I think where the song has an emotional, delicate vocal, they tend to be less important, but where there is a strongly sung vocal, I usually try them. 
I was lucky enough just once in my life to be part of recording a song in a top end studio in London. The producer recorded backing tracks (multiple) all through the song,and initially it almost sounded gospel, but once mixed, hardly any were left.

Sometimes I will go for a single harmony part, sometimes 2 or 3 part harmonies. Usually male vocals (me and my musical buddy both being men!), and normally towards the end of the song (later verses maybe, choruses probably, but depends what sounds right!). Usually we go for the 3rd/5th of the chord but sometimes we try something a bit more interesting. Did a sort of Sea Shanty BV once!

I'm not a big fan of oohs and ahhs, but I do quite like the BVs being separate from the Main vocal (like on California Dreaming), but used occasionally.

Still trying to work out my range - I'm not much of a singer (mostly backing vocals when playing live) and it seems to change daily!

cheers
Dave

Hi Dave, that's a most interesting story, I find you a really thoughtful, careful Artist, and one I take note of what you say, It's such a learning experience seeing top level producers and mixing engineers in action, they have ears that I don't have.

Recently I had an experience, with the song 'Stay' where the BVox are so low in the mix you hardly know they are Vox, and since then I tend to have them quite low, and the same goes with verb on them too.

You have a voice that is better than you think...

Regards

Rich

[jacksimmons]

For me, it depends on the song. I write everything on acoustic guitar and often I have written a tune that I know will require harmonies or bvox beforehand. My song 'He Had A Rifle In His Hand' is one of these - the verses and middle section would be incredibly bare and uneventful without the harmonies and bvox so it's a case of visualising that sound before I go to record. Other times I will lay down the song in it's entirety before I start working on harmonies and backing vocals and it's a much more organic process.

I have a bit of had a bit of a rigid process when it comes to recording extra vocals for a while, which is something I am trying to shake. I usually like to separate them all, hard pan and double track each harmony line. I know it's mad to formulate habits and I am getting used to taking each song as it's own creature and adjusting my vocal arrangements accordingly.

I am a harmony lover. My first loves were the Beatles and the Beach Boys. So it's very rare that harmonies and backing vocals don't cross my mind during the songwriting process.

I am lucky enough to have a pretty high range and use falsetto a lot for high parts. Some of my vocal takes sound utterly ridiculous solo'd

[dasntn]

Thanks Rich for the very kind comments!

I only started singing "properly" about 2 years ago when I started to going to open mics and sessions, and it has really helped me find my voice. I would recommend it to everyone!

cheers
Dave

[cowparsleyman]

For me, it depends on the song. I write everything on acoustic guitar and often I have written a tune that I know will require harmonies or bvox beforehand. My song 'He Had A Rifle In His Hand' is one of these - the verses and middle section would be incredibly bare and uneventful without the harmonies and bvox so it's a case of visualising that sound before I go to record. Other times I will lay down the song in it's entirety before I start working on harmonies and backing vocals and it's a much more organic process.

I have a bit of had a bit of a rigid process when it comes to recording extra vocals for a while, which is something I am trying to shake. I usually like to separate them all, hard pan and double track each harmony line. I know it's mad to formulate habits and I am getting used to taking each song as it's own creature and adjusting my vocal arrangements accordingly.

I am a harmony lover. My first loves were the Beatles and the Beach Boys. So it's very rare that harmonies and backing vocals don't cross my mind during the songwriting process.

I am lucky enough to have a pretty high range and use falsetto a lot for high parts. Some of my vocal takes sound utterly ridiculous solo'd

Jack, very interesting...your work reflects your organise approach, very precise and no empty spaces, nor crowded places sonically that is.

Not all songs need BVox, but most could do with some.

I have this thing with my brain/ears that ever since I was a young lad I dismantle songs into tracks, on the one hand it's a great asset, but on the other it means that very often the words and meaning of a song just pass me by. I'll be having dinner with my wife and I'll tell her about the way the bass and kick drum were EQ'd, or the compression on that funky strat. I think I'll start a new thread about this in another area of this forum, I'd be interested to hear if others have this, or would want it...

To me some of greatest songs are all about the implicit harmonies, and of these the hardest ones to recreate are often the best, Kate Bush has some terribly difficult stuff, but just sound wonderful, Erasure also had some rather tricky stuff too.

I came to realise that solo'd parts can sound utterly, utterly wrong, but when they are together  with all the other ingredients the cake is very tasty.

thanks again jack

cpm

[Skub]

Cool Thread CPM,I love me some BVs and harmonies.

I was raised by Jesus freaks and one of the few good things I took from religion was the melodies and harmonies used in hymns and gospel music in general. It was an excellent school for the ear and picking out all those cool harmonies. I also spent a good few years in working bands doing backing vocals and was more than happy to do so.

It's part of the frustration for me currently,that now rarely have space to myself to work on vocals or backing vocals,so every opportunity must be grabbed with both hands.

I don't have any rigid game plan or template,I just tend to fly by the seat of my pants. That,for better or worse has been the story of my life,in all aspects. I'm very undisciplined and contrary,so Mrs.Skub is always telling me! 

For the most part,I find BVs and harmony work to be a great pleasure,so much so that I'll overdo the parts like crazy,then as I go through the process of shaping the final song,I sit with the mute tool and take parts out/in until I achieve what pleases me in terms of light/shade and general dynamics. The end result will usually work for me because of what I leave out,rather than what I originally recorded.
I approach my guitar playing in much the same way,as folk will tire of endless guitar noodling,so anything which is overplayed loses impact.

I hear harmony parts in my head the same way I hear lead passages and sometimes use my guitar to find an elusive vocal harmony.

Bvs are another tool in the box.

Jack's Bvs are a thing of beauty,the lad has a friggin great ear. I also agree with him,when you solo individual tracks,they almost always sound like F all squared. I hate sending anyone the individual stems of my BVs. It's the overall sound that matters. Just like a choir.

[pompeyjazz]

Yeah.  BV's are the business. @Jack Simmons and @Skub are my two fave bvs masters. Like you Skub I was raised by Jeezus freaks so plenty of hymns to get the harmonies going. We also had The Beatles on tap on our Grundig reel to reel tape recorder. For years my brother and I never realised that there were jumps in the recording so consequently can give a harmony rendition of "This Boy"  including the jumps. Like Skub I also have trouble getting time to do much vocal work these days 

[cowparsleyman]

Cool Thread CPM,I love me some BVs and harmonies.

I was raised by Jesus freaks and one of the few good things I took from religion was the melodies and harmonies used in hymns and gospel music in general. It was an excellent school for the ear and picking out all those cool harmonies. I also spent a good few years in working bands doing backing vocals and was more than happy to do so.

It's part of the frustration for me currently,that now rarely have space to myself to work on vocals or backing vocals,so every opportunity must be grabbed with both hands.

I don't have any rigid game plan or template,I just tend to fly by the seat of my pants. That,for better or worse has been the story of my life,in all aspects. I'm very undisciplined and contrary,so Mrs.Skub is always telling me! 

For the most part,I find BVs and harmony work to be a great pleasure,so much so that I'll overdo the parts like crazy,then as I go through the process of shaping the final song,I sit with the mute tool and take parts out/in until I achieve what pleases me in terms of light/shade and general dynamics. The end result will usually work for me because of what I leave out,rather than what I originally recorded.
I approach my guitar playing in much the same way,as folk will tire of endless guitar noodling,so anything which is overplayed loses impact.

I hear harmony parts in my head the same way I hear lead passages and sometimes use my guitar to find an elusive vocal harmony.

Bvs are another tool in the box.

Jack's Bvs are a thing of beauty,the lad has a friggin great ear. I also agree with him,when you solo individual tracks,they almost always sound like F all squared. I hate sending anyone the individual stems of my BVs. It's the overall sound that matters. Just like a choir.

Whato The Skub, great to hear from you.

Thanks for contribution, don't you think that some folk don't realise how much work BVox are?, not just tracking but what to do with them once they're done? 12 Voxtracks can be quite a handful, especially if they are stems from a bunch of vocalists.

I agree with the guitar noodling, I guess that's why 'Jesus on a bike' is so short, less is more, why have 12 baps when you can have 5 loaves and 2 fishes?

Sending vocal stems or for me drum stems to artists you know that are really good is rather like coming out of a cold sea with white speedos.

thanks again

cpm

[cowparsleyman]

Yeah.  BV's are the business. @Jack Simmons and @Skub are my two fave bvs masters. Like you Skub I was raised by Jeezus freaks so plenty of hymns to get the harmonies going. We also had The Beatles on tap on our Grundig reel to reel tape recorder. For years my brother and I never realised that there were jumps in the recording so consequently can give a harmony rendition of "This Boy"  including the jumps. Like Skub I also have trouble getting time to do much vocal work these days 

Whato @pompeyjazz , hope you are well.

What a brilliant story, I can just imagine re recording it, and the engineer caning you both over the can's, superb, would be a great live number to witness, would throw any guest artists though.. I have to admit that I had a cassette of all my favourite solos, and it broke so I spliced it together again, so I too could sing quite an intricate slashed version of Larry Carlton ripping into 'Sister Jo' followed rather abruptly by the outro of Be Bop Deluxe's 'piece of mine'.
There's a thread emerging in this thread (maybe we can make a scarf from it) Does the Church spawn Rock n Rollers?

@Skub - That idea of finding a vocal line with the guitar is a great idea, I sometimes  use it both ways, if I find a hook , then I'll use it in a solo, as well as the other way around. Wouldn't it be great to sing like @Jack Simmons, also

@pnb also knows how to arrange vocals, what a talent - if you haven't heard 'Control and Liberated' - worth the time to check out the BVox on that one.

Thanks again.

cpm

[jacksimmons]

Jack's Bvs are a thing of beauty,the lad has a friggin great ear.

Yeah.  BV's are the business. @Jack Simmons and @Skub are my two fave bvs masters.

Wouldn't it be great to sing like @Jack Simmons, also

aw you guys

[adamfarr]

Great topic. For me, important to differentiate between BVs (that back up the lead), and harmony vocals (that sing a line following or complementing the lead).


BVs for me are more like an instrument and generally go to chord tones, while harmony vocals have more melody, lyrics and are more likely to be on scale tones. I think harmonies and bass are the things I enjoy writing and performing most.


For BVs, my thoughts (not rules):
- work out chord tones (including extensions and other colours which can be used for variation)
- avoiding the top line melody (except maybe for octaves)
- invert for voice-leading - there are nearly always common tones and you (usually) want the same voice on them
- think about adding movement and transitions (like when arranging bass or strings)
- also arrange with the other instruments in mind to avoid clashes
- what will they sing? Matching the vowel sounds of the lead vocal can be really effective (so if the lead vocal sings "she moves me", think about "eee-oo-eee" in the BVs, not just "ah". Mmmm or nnnn are also available!
- how many? Part of the build can be to add a third or additional voice e.g. to a final chorus
- what voice - I do sometimes use formant changers to add a female sound, or pitch changers if really impossible for me to stretch
- doubling each part can make 3 voices sound enormous!
- test record on keys or guitar to hear in context - can also then use as guide tracks
- chop breaths
- tune, compress, and de-ess like crazy (actually you almost never need ss's)
- stretch, chop and line up
- pan (the higher pitched, the harder)
- send to a reverb - probably not the same one as the lead vox
- also add saturation/distortion if too "nice"


For harmony vox, sometimes some different considerations, or sometimes just the same or part of the BVs (I am less practiced in doing these):
- what interval(s)?
- higher or lower than the lead? Ever crossing?
- if more than one, less voice leading - more likely to jump in parallel with the top line
- when to introduce, how much to sing, how often
- shouldn't be so strictly lined up
- breaths usually more acceptable
- consider chopping out initial or end consonants - it's amazing how often they are not necessary / interfere
- think about vocal riding/expanding to follow level of lead


etc, until dawn or exhaustion (or competition deadline) comes ....

[cowparsleyman]

Whato Adam

Spot on post, really top drawer, thanks very much, I have to admit that many of these things have been a hurdle in the past. I use the same definitions of BVox and HVox, they are 2 different animals.

So much of what you say is so true.

When dealing with BVox I like to think of a conductor of an orchestra, he's go so many resources he could use, but which ones does he go for, why and what will they play? BVox is a miniscule example of that (unless it's a Queen or ELO song) will it wake up the audience? will it interest musicians who will play it, or those who might subsequently hear it?

The HVox approach is particularly difficult to get right, It's so tempting to do the well trodden 3rd above and then wing you way through the next one, then dup it and move it a couple of milliseconds on...

I rather like the non obvious approach of delaying key words in the line, and trying to create a hook where there probably wasn't one, I think Bonnie Raitt does this quite a bit.

Currently I have a really great LVox line and it's quite breathy at the beginning of some of the phrases, but I like it that way, that's the thing I really like it that way, and I want to keep it; it gives an intimacy about the whole thing, a sense of being right there standing next to her, it completes the emotion that's she's putting into the delivery, I tried cutting out the breaths as I know I should but it just didn't do it for me.

I'd remove the breaths on the HVox in this example, so the breaths on the LVox aren't diluted.

Melodyne is indeed a super tool to mange HVox, have you experienced artefacts on over processed notes?

@adamfarr -  would you have separate busses for BVox and HVox?
@pnb - How did you approach the B and HVox in 'Control and Liberated'

Thanks very much for this post Adam.

cpm