Clean windows.

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pompeyjazz

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jacksimmons

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« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2018, 10:59:19 PM »
If a songwriter wants to write lyrics that have no meaning or purpose then that is their artistic choice to do so.
If they also want to have a 59 second intro then that is also their artisitic choice to do so.
If they then decide that a 1:30 minute solo is right for their song then again they should go ahead and do that.
If their new song is to last 7 minutes and 59 seconds long then again that is their artistic decision.
 
And when they then put their song up for feedback and people respond with comments like maybe make the lyrics a little bit clearer or the intro could be a bit shorter or maybe think about making that solo a bit shorter too and maybe think about making the song length shorter cos it does drag on a bit tbh? They can simply bury their head in the sand and ignore all of that very good advice given to them.
Because at the end of the day that is also their choice too.

You are going round and round in circles. One minute you want everyone to conform to your special rules of songwriting, the next everyone can do whatever the hell they want. One moment you are laying out tips like the ten commandments and the next it is all subjective. You sound like you are coming from a very specific place with a very specific idea of what a song is.

I'm a pop guy. I like making retro pop songs so the above, to me, is all sound advice. But here's the thing: to someone who is writing a musical (which I have done), cutting out instrumental interludes isn't a good, clever thing to do, it is removing something integral to the genre of music you are trying to create. If someone is writing a prog song then telling them to remove the long guitar solos and cut down instrumentals isn't good advice. It's pretty shit advice.

What's wrong with a 8 minute song? There are some great 8 minute songs. There are some great songs with long intros and great songs with a long guitar solo. Heaven forbid, maybe even two long guitar solos. So what's the point in this thread?
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Oldbutyet

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« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2018, 12:07:39 AM »
Hi,
Every ones loves crystal clear windows. When you look through them everything is sharper, more vibrant in color and crystal clear.
Your lyrics should be exactly the same.
Sharp, vibrant in color and crystal clear!

You should NEVER have to explain what your song is all about before people review your song.
That job belongs to your songs lyrics!
If your lyrics are crystal clear then you have no reason to explain your song to ANYONE before we the listener click on it.
The listener should get it in one. If they don't then re write and re write it until they do.

Johnny :)

I understand what your written words here are saying Johnny but "crystal clear windows"  "everything is sharper"  "more vibrant in color"   

"If your lyrics are crystal clear then you have no reason to explain your song to ANYONE before we the listener click on it"

Every now and then I hear a song that I know from the start feels good in every way but then most of them lose their way in production or whatever but thankfully some don't, it's the some don't that I like.

On these open view threads we're all just having a written word conversation here, I like to think  ;D

Nice one Johnny 8)

« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 12:17:47 AM by Oldbutyet »

Johnnyuk

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« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2018, 06:29:25 AM »
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 03:52:42 PM by Johnnyuk »

Mike67

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« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2018, 06:45:34 AM »
Can we not just cut this string now? I can't see what it's adding to the forum,
other than serving as a distraction. My opinion.

tone

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« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2018, 08:05:08 AM »
@Johnnyuk nobody is telling you you're not entitled to your opinion. Also, please point out examples of name calling, as this is not in the spirit of the forum and something I like to keep an eye on.

The problem here is this. You started a thread trying to 'teach' us all how to write. Some people disagreed with you, you posted counter arguments. Unfortunately, some of your counter arguments contradicted with your original statements.

Your posts are full of inconsistencies, and yet you're still banging the "I'm right" nail over the head instead of recognising your hubris and adjusting your attitude accordingly.

Also, please be mindful of the words you use and their actual meaning. You may not have noticed I am a moderator on this forum, so I read what you say about my posts when you report them.

If you want to have a conversation about lyric writing then I am genuinely up for that. Threads about the art/ craft of writing are some of the ones I enjoy most. But if you want to be right and teach everyone else your rules, you should organise your own platform to do so.

For the record, Hotel California is one of the most successful songs ever, and it has two super long guitar solos back to back. Likewise, the long guitar solo in Bohemian Rhapsody is one of the iconic moments in one of the most famous pop songs ever. Personally, I don't like guitar solos, but that's just me. They're not 'wrong'.

For every rule you care to espouse, there will be many exceptions we can all think of, which will prove only one thing. Rule-breaking is just as valid in its own right as rule-adherence. Bottom line is this: if your song is killer, you might be able to break as many rules as you want and still have success. If your song is limp, you can follow your clean windows rule and your I-V-P-C-V-P-C-B-C-C structure and still have a boring record no-one's interested in hearing.

Of course people asking for criticism should be able to take it. But if you're getting the hump because people are choosing not to follow your advice (which is how your last thread sounds), then your expectations of this forum are way off the mark.

Based on your observations in this thread, if you critiqued one of my songs, you'd most likely say it needed to be less ambiguous lyrically and more repetitive musically. I'd thank you for your opinion and ignore your advice, because that's not what I'm going for.

Having strong opinions about how things should be doesn't also mean you can act as an authority. Like you said in your last post, you're quite new here. If you're looking to become a respected member of the community, that comes with time and the respect you extend to others, not from trying to take them/us to school.
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« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2018, 08:13:59 AM »
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 03:52:58 PM by Johnnyuk »

Boydie

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« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2018, 08:25:24 AM »
Quote
Hi Boydie,
Everything above that you have written is your opinion, one which you are clearly entitled to have.
I have no problem with you having your opinion or anyone for that matter.
But can i say the same thing about this thread which i created to post my opinion in on this topic.???
That is what people are missing.

I think this is the crux of what has happened here - and I do think it is worth "thrashing out" as I do not want my forum to lose the "healthy debates" we often have here

@Johnnyuk You are entitled to your opinion and I truly welcome it (I have already said that I actually agree with it)

The problem is you presented your opinion as fact - this is clearly going to be open to challenge and I can understand that the way you initially presented it as a "teaching point" would get some people's backs up

To continue the "songs as babies" analogy - if you were to walk up to a group of people you barely know and start dishing out parenting advice on the "right way" to bring up their children I think you would get a similar back lash!!!

If, however, rather than presenting your points as "fact" you had said - "I think lyrics should always be crystal clear - what do you guys think?" there would have been a really healthy discussion (which I know you have done successfully in other threads so this might just be a misunderstanding/poor choice of wording)

Very few things in songwriting are "fact" or "right and wrong"

Except of course @tone having the opinion that he doesn't like guitar solos - this is clearly wrong and songs should have LOTS of guitar solos and more cowbell  ;D ;)
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Johnnyuk

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« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2018, 08:29:03 AM »
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 03:53:13 PM by Johnnyuk »

Boydie

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« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2018, 11:15:14 AM »
Quote
I don't like marmite either

Now, THAT is a fact - marmite is disgusting!!!! Everyone knows that
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Mike67

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« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2018, 12:12:59 PM »
I don't like cricket, but I love Marmite!

Darren1664

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« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2018, 12:48:45 PM »
Quote
I don't like marmite either

Now, THAT is a fact - marmite is disgusting!!!! Everyone knows that

Disgustingly good!!

I dont agree that the meaning of lyrics needs to be crystal clear but I get the advise given. TBH I think with the right melody and music many listeners won't care too much for meaning, although I think it's nice if the lyrics are strong/well thought out.

It amazes me how diffierent words have different sonic value (if that's the right terminology) even if they're just one letter different. I have sometimes found that a lyric can sound 'off' and I change a word (and it could be the smallest of change) and it sounds much better. So it makes me wonder that if the word that sounds 'right' doesn't fit the meaning should we throw it away or do we need to revisit the lyrics as a whole to work around the new word?

Thanks

Darren

Johnnyuk

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« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2018, 01:05:28 PM »
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 03:53:28 PM by Johnnyuk »

Bill Saunders

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« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2018, 06:43:56 PM »
Quote
I don't like marmite either

Now, THAT is a fact - marmite is disgusting!!!! Everyone knows that

That's outrageous. Marmite is gorgeous. FACT.

IMHO

tone

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« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2018, 06:48:30 PM »
I'm coining a new acronym. IMFO Marmite is delicious. In My Factual Opinion :D
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