[Darren1664]

Hi all

I have been trying a lot lately to get a decent guitar tone for recording with. Just decent enough to be happy sharing my songs.

I have gone down the route of using LePou's Amp and Impulse Response loader but am struggling to get the sound I want.

I have a few questions for the more experienced.

When using LePou Impulse Response loader I am able to select an impulse for left and right and then inverse polarity and add delay, to give a wider sound. However I am wandering if it would be better to record the part twice and pan left and right? Would this give the part more dynamics?

Also, curiously, what is your effects chain for guitars? I use an overdrive pedal > Amp > Cab and that's about it. I try to EQ but struggle massively.

Any tips here much appreciated. Thank you

Darren

[cowparsleyman]

Hi Darren, I'll try to help, but you didn't say what kind of tone you are after...or what genre song it is.

to assist further I would need to know

1. What sound you are after.
2. What guitar, amp, fx you have
3. What mic you have.

look forward to hearing from you

Regards

cpm

[Boydie]

You would DEFINITELY be better off recording the parts twice and panning left and right

The subtle differences in timing and tone will make ALL the difference and give a "bigger" sound

You should definitely get your head around EQ as (IMHO) this is key to getting a big guitar sound, whilst also leaving room for other elements (especially vocals, bass, keys, drums etc.)

Often a guitar sound treated with EQ to fit in to a mix will sound horrible on its own - and a guitar sound that sounds great on its own can get lost in a mix or adversely affect other (more important) elements

As for the tone itself, as COWPARSELEYMAN has said, we need to know what tone you want

I am currently loving AMPLITUBE 4 for Marshall tones and the Fender 2 pack produces amazing Fender clean tones

[Darren1664]

Hi Darren, I'll try to help, but you didn't say what kind of tone you are after...or what genre song it is.

to assist further I would need to know

1. What sound you are after.
2. What guitar, amp, fx you have
3. What mic you have.

look forward to hearing from you

Regards

cpm

Hi CPM

Thanks for the reply and yes, I should probably a given you some more info

Well I don't have an amp or mic. I am recording direct into my DAW with the Apogee Jam Audio Interface. I then use amp modellers (if that's what they're called).

My guitar is an Epiphone Les Paul.

Hmm in terms of tone I have found it hardest to get a nice clean tone that doesn't sound harsh. Something warm and smooth (if they're the right words). My clean tones tend to sound quite dry and I end up adding gain to make it sound a little better. I guess I need reverb or delay but don't really know how to handle these.

I also play with some heavier stuff that would want a more distorted sound but I am struggling to mix two guitar parts together and the over all sound ends up being too fuzzy for my tastes. I probably need to dial back the gain but I then seem to lose presence.

Thank you for your time

Darren

[Darren1664]

You would DEFINITELY be better off recording the parts twice and panning left and right

The subtle differences in timing and tone will make ALL the difference and give a "bigger" sound

You should definitely get your head around EQ as (IMHO) this is key to getting a big guitar sound, whilst also leaving room for other elements (especially vocals, bass, keys, drums etc.)

Often a guitar sound treated with EQ to fit in to a mix will sound horrible on its own - and a guitar sound that sounds great on its own can get lost in a mix or adversely affect other (more important) elements

As for the tone itself, as COWPARSELEYMAN has said, we need to know what tone you want

I am currently loving AMPLITUBE 4 for Marshall tones and the Fender 2 pack produces amazing Fender clean tones

You're always so helpful Boydie, thank you

It's a relief to hear you say that about recording twice. I thought the same but worried that I was over complicating my mixes by ending up with 4 or more guitar tracks. A follow on from this, when mixing would you send all guitar tracks to the same bus, or split them up into their pairs and mix that way?

I have read a lot about EQing guitars and what you have said is the same as I have read but when I try it I seem to get it horribly wrong. I tend to HPF to 100hz, and LPF anything about 10k, sweep for harsh frequencies and cut and then boost somewhere in the 1k - 3k range (why this range I don't know - best get back to my reading ).

I am saving up for more software but I think drums will be my priority but one day I will treat myself to a nice guitar package like Amplitude.

Part of my problem is having/making time. I need to sit down in small bursts and tweak things and learn what they do.

Thanks for your helpful reply

Darren

[cowparsleyman]

Hi Darren

Boydie is right, record twice, this also very often applies to vocals too, those subtle differences in timing sound wayyyyy better than a doubler.

As for your sound, well, theres a lot you can do, and this is just my opinion...

Start with the undistorted sound, epi pickups have come a long way, but changing the pickups might help, it'll always sound good.

I have tried the Vandal amp sim plugin but I really can't get on with it, as a guitarist I use a good old fashioned all valve amp and stomp boxes, and a condensor mic.  but if this isn't an option then do some controlled tests with your plugins.

less is more with distorted rhythm guitars, I normally use a tele for rhythm (in a tight crunch sound), and often only a single take is enough, for solos I have a few stomp boxes and guitars that I can choose, but a Epi SG special is very nice, ,if not noisey.

I rather turn to delay rather than reverb, as it can sound like both, reverb also often is applied at the mastering stage, to give it some overall depth.

This might also sort your 'dry-ness' out, have faith with this, as you'll only get a feel for this after a few time sin doing it...

look at separating the guitar parts Left and Right, and having them lower in the mix that you think, as being distorted they lack dynamics (take a listen to this as you'll hear the effect of heavy guitars with hardly any dynamic range...You need space for every instrument.

Original (telecaster + Soldano L and Mesa Boogie R)
https://soundcloud.com/cowparsleyman/she-shook-me-cold-v2

remix (removed the heavy rectifier amps, replaced with light crunch Yamaha SG 1000)

https://soundcloud.com/cowparsleyman/she-shook-me-cold-v3-remix-1/s-Gr1pz

Hope this demonstrates bringing the levels of distorted guitars down, leaving the vocals more prominent.

Hope you find this useful

cpm

[Darren1664]

Hi Darren

Boydie is right, record twice, this also very often applies to vocals too, those subtle differences in timing sound wayyyyy better than a doubler.

As for your sound, well, theres a lot you can do, and this is just my opinion...

Start with the undistorted sound, epi pickups have come a long way, but changing the pickups might help, it'll always sound good.

I have tried the Vandal amp sim plugin but I really can't get on with it, as a guitarist I use a good old fashioned all valve amp and stomp boxes, and a condensor mic.  but if this isn't an option then do some controlled tests with your plugins.

less is more with distorted rhythm guitars, I normally use a tele for rhythm (in a tight crunch sound), and often only a single take is enough, for solos I have a few stomp boxes and guitars that I can choose, but a Epi SG special is very nice, ,if not noisey.

I rather turn to delay rather than reverb, as it can sound like both, reverb also often is applied at the mastering stage, to give it some overall depth.

This might also sort your 'dry-ness' out, have faith with this, as you'll only get a feel for this after a few time sin doing it...

look at separating the guitar parts Left and Right, and having them lower in the mix that you think, as being distorted they lack dynamics (take a listen to this as you'll hear the effect of heavy guitars with hardly any dynamic range...You need space for every instrument.

Original (telecaster + Soldano L and Mesa Boogie R)
https://soundcloud.com/cowparsleyman/she-shook-me-cold-v2

remix (removed the heavy rectifier amps, replaced with light crunch Yamaha SG 1000)

https://soundcloud.com/cowparsleyman/she-shook-me-cold-v3-remix-1/s-Gr1pz

Hope this demonstrates bringing the levels of distorted guitars down, leaving the vocals more prominent.

Hope you find this useful

cpm

Hi cpm!!

What a great reply, thank you for taking the time to write this and demonstrate the difference. Really interesting listen (and great track btw!!). There's a really noticeable difference between the two and I notice that by dialling back the distortion you've not only opened up room for the vocals and other instruments but also added clarity to the guitar parts themselves. Is there some delay or reverb on the guitars in the second track? Really nice tone they have!

I double tracked one of my tracks last night to hear the difference and it is instantly noticeable. Why I didn't just test this I don't know, sometimes it's nice to talk it through. I don't have time now but if I do later I will share the two takes. Although the tone isn't still quite there it's so much better doubled.

You mentioned doubling vocals, is this common practice? I doubled all my vocals normally as it seems to really help my wobbly voice. When doubled it just sounds so much better to my ear. When mixing a doubled vocal would you pan them or just tuck one underneath the other at the front?

Living in a flat in town means I have neither the space nor money but the dream is one day to have a proper space for recording where I can get myself the gear I've always dreamed of - Valve amp, stomps, mic, the lot!

I will need to experiment with reverbs and delays. I have just acquired the ambience plug in (recommended by Adam in another thread) and really look forward to using this. The big lesson I have already learned here is to experiment and listen for the difference, learn what happens with different settings/set up.

Do you know of any effects pedals that give a guitar a more metallic sound btw? and I don't mean metal as in heavy like the music but metal like the substance? I've heard a guitar tone before I really loved and will try to find it to share but it had a subtle metaliccy sound that was lovely.

Any way sorry for the added questions. Feel free to ignore but massive thanks for your advice!!

All the best

Darren

[Darren1664]

I managed to grab the time now to upload the two tracks

The track with one guitar part but two impulses panned (so in affect just the same part twice)

https://soundcloud.com/user-41129754/bluesy-punk/s-SenMz

The doubled track with the guitar recorded twice and panned left and right

https://soundcloud.com/user-41129754/bluesy-punk-double-guitar/s-9meZo

I think the difference is really noticeable. Any comments on the current tone appreciated (please ignore the tracking issue will correct them)

Thanks

Darren

[shadowfax]

For me, playing guitar is tough..takes me ages to get it right so instead of playing it twice I make a copy of the track and pan one left and one right then move one of them forward a bit and the other one backwards a bit..this instantly gives you a much bigger sound...eq each one slightly different and it sounds like you've played twice...
also I think it's best to get your sound before you go into the DAW..I use a line six pod pro..got it for 30 quid 2nd hand...my personal pref..i know lots of peeps record with no effects then effect later in the DAW...what ever floats your boat I s'pose..

best, Kevin

[Neil C]

Hey good advice there. That amp sim is good but also try amplitude as Boydie mentioned, they offer some free stuff and it's interesting to see how the guitar and differing amp and speaker combines just like real world. There are also a number of free vst pedals on the internet, including tube screamers. Have a search.

Best to get best sound you can at source so and eq or fxs are just tweaking.

Personally if you double up the guitars and pan left and right does strengthen things but you have to take care with your playing to make sure it's precise otherwise it can sound worse. I often cheat with a fake stereo plug-in, and with a bit of eq cut it sounds fine. I use reverbs but I'm an oldie but for rock delays are good, especially if you pan them. Also for rock having nothing may make them stand out more.

Good luck

Neil

[cowparsleyman]

Hi Darren

Boydie is right, record twice, this also very often applies to vocals too, those subtle differences in timing sound wayyyyy better than a doubler.

As for your sound, well, theres a lot you can do, and this is just my opinion...

Start with the undistorted sound, epi pickups have come a long way, but changing the pickups might help, it'll always sound good.

I have tried the Vandal amp sim plugin but I really can't get on with it, as a guitarist I use a good old fashioned all valve amp and stomp boxes, and a condensor mic.  but if this isn't an option then do some controlled tests with your plugins.

less is more with distorted rhythm guitars, I normally use a tele for rhythm (in a tight crunch sound), and often only a single take is enough, for solos I have a few stomp boxes and guitars that I can choose, but a Epi SG special is very nice, ,if not noisey.

I rather turn to delay rather than reverb, as it can sound like both, reverb also often is applied at the mastering stage, to give it some overall depth.

This might also sort your 'dry-ness' out, have faith with this, as you'll only get a feel for this after a few time sin doing it...

look at separating the guitar parts Left and Right, and having them lower in the mix that you think, as being distorted they lack dynamics (take a listen to this as you'll hear the effect of heavy guitars with hardly any dynamic range...You need space for every instrument.

Original (telecaster + Soldano L and Mesa Boogie R)
https://soundcloud.com/cowparsleyman/she-shook-me-cold-v2

remix (removed the heavy rectifier amps, replaced with light crunch Yamaha SG 1000)

https://soundcloud.com/cowparsleyman/she-shook-me-cold-v3-remix-1/s-Gr1pz

Hope this demonstrates bringing the levels of distorted guitars down, leaving the vocals more prominent.

Hope you find this useful

cpm

Hi cpm!!

What a great reply, thank you for taking the time to write this and demonstrate the difference. Really interesting listen (and great track btw!!). There's a really noticeable difference between the two and I notice that by dialling back the distortion you've not only opened up room for the vocals and other instruments but also added clarity to the guitar parts themselves. Is there some delay or reverb on the guitars in the second track? Really nice tone they have!

I double tracked one of my tracks last night to hear the difference and it is instantly noticeable. Why I didn't just test this I don't know, sometimes it's nice to talk it through. I don't have time now but if I do later I will share the two takes. Although the tone isn't still quite there it's so much better doubled.

You mentioned doubling vocals, is this common practice? I doubled all my vocals normally as it seems to really help my wobbly voice. When doubled it just sounds so much better to my ear. When mixing a doubled vocal would you pan them or just tuck one underneath the other at the front?

Living in a flat in town means I have neither the space nor money but the dream is one day to have a proper space for recording where I can get myself the gear I've always dreamed of - Valve amp, stomps, mic, the lot!

I will need to experiment with reverbs and delays. I have just acquired the ambience plug in (recommended by Adam in another thread) and really look forward to using this. The big lesson I have already learned here is to experiment and listen for the difference, learn what happens with different settings/set up.

Do you know of any effects pedals that give a guitar a more metallic sound btw? and I don't mean metal as in heavy like the music but metal like the substance? I've heard a guitar tone before I really loved and will try to find it to share but it had a subtle metaliccy sound that was lovely.

Any way sorry for the added questions. Feel free to ignore but massive thanks for your advice!!

All the best

Darren

Your most welcome, If I can help at all...

Here are 2 ways to get a metallic sound.
1. use a flanger (think steely dan)
2. User a nbathroom kind of reverb (think of scarey monsters and super creeps)

With regards to doubling Vox, it all depends on the song, not all songs need it, you can thicken out choruses, but I'd normally use BVox for that (i.e. not always singing the melody line).

The best thing is to experiment in a controlled way, write down settings that you like...

Good luck

cpm

[Daniel_Young]

You gave here some nice tips for distorted sounds.

What's your favorite plugin and settings for a Clean sound?
 I find it really hard to get the tone and dynamics that a real Voxac30 and a tube screamer can get you.


Thanks for all the great tips!

[cowparsleyman]

Hi Daniel

I don't use any plugins for guitar, although I have Magix Vandal. So I can't help you with those I'm afraid, they just don't do it for me.

A cheap way to get a reasonable AC30 sound is the Joyo British Sound pedal - AC30 amp modeller. Only about £25.

hope this helps

cpm

[Darren1664]

For me, playing guitar is tough..takes me ages to get it right so instead of playing it twice I make a copy of the track and pan one left and one right then move one of them forward a bit and the other one backwards a bit..this instantly gives you a much bigger sound...eq each one slightly different and it sounds like you've played twice...
also I think it's best to get your sound before you go into the DAW..I use a line six pod pro..got it for 30 quid 2nd hand...my personal pref..i know lots of peeps record with no effects then effect later in the DAW...what ever floats your boat I s'pose..

best, Kevin

I do find the same problems Kev. My playing isn't tight enough to capture the guitar track in a few takes. I often have to record the part many many times and even then there's noticeable differences. I've tried sending the same part left and right with some delay but found it didn't quite have the same impact as double tracking.

Interesting about adding effects pre DAW. I hadn't considered this. So I guess I could add effects pedals to my guitar chain before I plug it into my Audio Interface. I like this idea as I do like hardware and some pedals I can probably pick up quite cheap second hand these days. It's just space really.

Thanks for the tips

Darren

[Darren1664]

Hey good advice there. That amp sim is good but also try amplitude as Boydie mentioned, they offer some free stuff and it's interesting to see how the guitar and differing amp and speaker combines just like real world. There are also a number of free vst pedals on the internet, including tube screamers. Have a search.

Best to get best sound you can at source so and eq or fxs are just tweaking.

Personally if you double up the guitars and pan left and right does strengthen things but you have to take care with your playing to make sure it's precise otherwise it can sound worse. I often cheat with a fake stereo plug-in, and with a bit of eq cut it sounds fine. I use reverbs but I'm an oldie but for rock delays are good, especially if you pan them. Also for rock having nothing may make them stand out more.

Good luck

Neil

Thanks Neil. Similar comment there to Kev and is something I struggle with (the double tracking) so will experiment with this. and yeah I am very tempted to try Amplitude as I have heard a lot of good things about it and as I don't really know what I am doing it will probably be easier to use something more user friendly.

I'm not great with Revern and have a tendency to over do it. Again I need to experiment.

Thanks for the advice

Darren