Anyone got any tips for getting a convincing MIDI Funk/Disco Brass sound

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cowparsleyman

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« on: February 23, 2018, 08:23:25 AM »
From time to time I think yip, this will sound good with  a tight Brass section on, in the style of Commodores 'Brick House' or Earth Wind and Fire 'September',  or on more jazz funk numbers the Breacker Brothers.

I get the notes right, but on playback it just does not sound convincing. I'm happy with the plugin (Magix Independence pro) sound of the Brass , it's just the feel, I've tried monkeying about with Velocity/attack release legato etc.etc. but as yet nothing sounds close, and as a result it always doesn't sound complete. Maybe I should cut the midi notes into shorter lengths, I don't know.

Has anyone managed to conquer this?

I'd be very grateful. Thanks

cpm



cowparsleyman

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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2018, 12:42:27 PM »
Hi 'the Pomp Meister', last thing I heard from you was pretty funky, how's the medallion hangin' ?

OK, hope he bites @Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra...

Take care with those platforms...

cpm


adamfarr

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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2018, 02:28:33 PM »
It's F... fairly hard!


First you do have to try to get the best sounding VST/samples that you can. The quality is really variable, even between free and paid ones. I usually end up having various plugins not all from the same maker. Certainly you need each instrument on a different track so you can process separately. Trumpets seem to need less processing than saxes...


Then there's choice of instruments - I have had best results with alto + baritone saxes plus trumpet - never gone for trombone (probably hard to do well with VST...).


Then there's arrangement - what chords, which voicings, which part to give each instrument...


If the VST has an "expression" setting this can help along with the attack, decay etc.


Make sure midi is not too quantized, you really want a few random bits of overlap between the "players".


Then comes the heavy lifting, you'll need a shed-load of processing on each track e.g. here's a chain I have used:


- light compression (only if really needed) - and choose an analogue sounding one if possible
- some sort of distortion/crusher (sounds less electronic) especially on saxes
- EQ - there's usually some horribleness in high mids and a meaty boost needed in the lows (but careful to make all instruments work together). High pass.
- analogue warmth - some sort of vintage tube emulator is good
- more EQ if needed (now can need to lose some lows)
- reverb (or slap delay) - lots of highs, bit of mids, back off lows
- finally, more EQ: e.g. high shelf, high pass again...


And then automate the volume... I would do all this for each track, I don't think there's much you can do as a group - perhaps a bit of compression and tape emulation...


I think it's one of the hardest things to do. Loops can also work really well if no luck or patience with this type of masochistic approach! Looking forward to hearing how it goes!

Boydie

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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2018, 03:23:00 PM »
@adamfarr is absolutely spot on with all points - especially the F...fairly hard bit!

Here is my take based on using Chris Hein Horns Compact...

To my ears the Chris Hein Horns are absolutey AWESOME!

The keys to authentic horns (IMHO) are…

Make sure your MIDI notes are not perfectly lined up – it is the subtle timing differences that give that authentic “feel”

During held notes/chords spend some time adding volume automation to provide “swells”, crescendos, subtle variations on each instrument etc.

If you have access to “articulations” make sure you throw some in – eg rips, falls etc.

You could also experiment with micro tuning adjustments on each instrument, which may help to “thicken” the sound and add to the realism

I would also be very wary of adding too many horns (depending on the style you are working on) – in soul, funk etc. the horn section is usually quite small

You might be “fooling” yourself into thinking that adding more instruments is improving the sound – it might just be the volume increase making it sound "better"

You may be better off spending your time tweaking the sounds

Here are some few tracks where I have put this in to practice:

Nice Guys


Mr Bad News

I also recorded some "sax" on a track for NEIL C using my guitar synth that had a little more of a jazzy feel:

As with most things "production wise" it is attention to lots of little details that add up to make the biggest difference

I hope this helps

To check out my music please visit:

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cowparsleyman

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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2018, 03:52:25 PM »
Thanks for the feedback, some really great tips there, I'll give em a try over the weekend.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that found it tricky.

Maybe I'been adding too many horns, quite often one can only select 'Pop Brass section'

I'll revisit the options in there. I know there are falls and swells.

I'll let you know how it goes, I'll miss Ramshackles by the way, he was so welcoming to me.

cpm

Boydie

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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2018, 05:41:54 PM »
Quote
I'll let you know how it goes, I'll miss Ramshackles by the way, he was so welcoming to me.

@cowparsleyman  ??? Have I missed something!?!?!?!
To check out my music please visit:

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cowparsleyman

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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2018, 07:43:53 PM »
Quote
I'll let you know how it goes, I'll miss Ramshackles by the way, he was so welcoming to me.

@cowparsleyman  ??? Have I missed something!?!?!?!

I thought he said he was leaving the forum for personal reasons, or maybe that was someone else...

cpm

cowparsleyman

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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2018, 07:46:30 PM »
Quote
I'll let you know how it goes, I'll miss Ramshackles by the way, he was so welcoming to me.

@cowparsleyman  ??? Have I missed something!?!?!?!

It was me Boydie, I won't miss Ramshackles at all, It's Wickedeeds I'll miss, Oh My Golly, as someone once said...It's me age, Missus(as Frankie Howerd would say)

cpm

pompeyjazz

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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 10:51:23 PM »
Agree with most of the above,  especially that it is extremely difficult.  From my humble experience I would recommend the brass sounds on Xpand2 plus  get yer hands on some samples and chop em up carefully man  :)

Ramshackles

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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2018, 09:01:29 AM »
Quote
I'll let you know how it goes, I'll miss Ramshackles by the way, he was so welcoming to me.

@cowparsleyman  ??? Have I missed something!?!?!?!
As Granny Weatherwax would say; I ate'nt dead

Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2018, 09:07:38 AM »
Hello fellas

Well, far from being an expert, just that I've tried to use it more than most of you....with mixed results.

Best effort was on Under A Jacaranda which was loops. With a good loop you can be at least guaranteed to get an authentic section sound and part. trouble is finding the appropriate loops in right style and tempo etc.


I've not had access to a pricey thing like Chris Heins but think Boydie did a good job with those on Nice Guys and for section stuff I think that's probably the way to go if you can afford it. I remember that sax solo...it was nice but think solo playing is even harder to get feel and expression and would always use loops (of real playing) there or a real player if you could get one....fat chance!

My current method is using section loops and chopping to get the part I want.....Ain't That Enough...mostly stabby stuff. As I said before you've at least got the instruments balanced then and the hard bit is just getting the part right.


I assume though that you'll be going the vsti route so all i can think to say is....get the voicings and part right and with half-decent samples you're halfway there. An inappropriate chord voicing where it would better off unison will blow it....

As for processing.....well for me that is just hit and miss because I know very little! So listen to Boydie and Adam!
Take it easy.

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adamfarr

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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2018, 09:31:12 AM »

Great examples @Viscount Cramer & His Orchestra

... also not forgetting panning - even if all "standing" to one side, my instinct would be not to have each instrument together - my feeling would be lower register nearer the centre and higher ones panned wider (but I'm not sure that's necessarily so!)

cowparsleyman

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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2018, 12:30:10 PM »
Just listened to Viscounts brass, very nice indeed, that's one way to do it, chop the loops, I'm going to try to create them, because if I get it right then I'll have another string (or horn) to my bow, but definitely less is more.

I loved some of the lyrics, too.

thanks to your highness and all the other contributors.

Shall I create a tribute band to the Commodores called the Commodes?

cpm