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[tone]

Hi Seversyn, and welcome to the forum. Glad you've taken the plunge and decided to join us.

I'm also a little guilty of writing to the very same formula, although I do manage to break out of it perhaps every third song.

How do I break out of it? I'm not sure exactly. I never force myself to change the order of elements while I'm writing; most songs just come out the way they are. Why not try taking some of your existing songs and playing around with the arrangements. A key change, a short motif, little riff or rhythmic change can all change the way your songs flow, and might give you ideas for diversifying your arrangements.

One of my favourite songwriters is Neil Finn (crowded house)  - have a listen to some of his work, he's very good at writing outside of this formula.

[Ramshackles]

Jigging up the structure of songs is a difficult task, especially when you are used to a particular style and way of writing.
I try to approach each new song in a totally different manner to the rest. One of the songs Im working on right now completely abandons regular 'pop song' strucutre; you can hear a half mixed version here: http://www.songwriterforum.co.uk/recording/simple-mixing-tips/
It's comprised of 3 sections, A, B and C which are arranged in the form:
A B C B A
This is actually a pretty common structure; especially in classical music. Listening to music outside of the commercial song area can really help you come up with different structures.
You can try variations on the standard structure you gave, e.g having no 2 verses or choruses the same or start the song with the chorus. (She loves you and cant by me love are great examples of that).
Or take more tips from the beatles and dont have a chorus at all! Listen to a hard days night. It sounds like it's just some verses and a repeated bridge to me.
Another technique is to have something like Verse Chorus Verse Chorus Outro, where the 'outro' can often be a complete change in the song (fleet foxes do that a lot - e.g mykonos)

[Kafla]

But its still got that trademark Ramshackles gentle acoustic start - mid song breakout - gentle outro 

But it is a cracking song 

[chrislong170273]

I think the key is what you put INTO the standard structures. There is a reason that standard structures last the test of time and reoccur, because they work and are flexible enough to allow for expression within them. The structure should never be the slave to the musical ideas. Let your ideas roam and they will eventually structure themselves.

When writing songs I usually find a hook or two, and then work out from the chorus, the rest just looks after itself. But that is in a pop idiom. In other styles other ideas will work or can be stretched further. When composing classical music it is a free for all, my structures are compeltely invented, as is the norm in contemporary music. The key to any structure is the balance of repetition and contrast. Get this right and it will work.

Just to move out of your comfort zone, why not try an older form and use song form (AABA), all the old classics follow this, for example, I Got Rhythm, where the A sections are usually 8 bars long and the middle B section (the origins of the term 'middle 8') contrasts with the A sections. Dylan's "Make You Feel My Love" (recently redone by Adele) follow the same pattern but extends to AABA(A)BA  , the (A) is simply an instrumental A section.

Chris
www.chrislong.me.uk

[Mr.Chainsaw]

What Chris said is spot on. Think of structure as your canvas. No ones going to look at the canvas when there's a moving work of art painted on it.

One of my fab Laura Marking tracks has a structure I still can't figure out, but the lyrics and performance are so deep, they don't need to be. Check it out.

Peter

[Ramshackles]

But its still got that trademark Ramshackles gentle acoustic start - mid song breakout - gentle outro 

But it is a cracking song 

Lols, I've created my own standard structure!
As Mr Chainsaw said, Laura Marling is another great one for just messing around with structures. I cant think of a single song on her latest album that follows verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus.

[The Corsair]

As far as lyrical structure goes there's plenty of options... You can cut the bridge and have another verse, you can have multiple bridges, you can split it in to structurally unique parts. If you really want you can have no chorus.

I have to ask, though, lyrically how do you write? Do you think of a title and write lyrics to it? Do you come up with a melody and write to it? Do you just write lyrics down in a song and work the rest out later? Do you write lyrics with some kind of melody and rhythm in mind? etc etc

[Kafla]

Hey Corsair 

For me I need a melody and chord sequence before I can even begin to write lyrics

Normally I sing different melodies over chords and inevitably a phrase will pop up that I really like (that becomes the trigger phrase), I continue to do this until no more lines come out - probably get more than half the song lyric this way - At this stage I am just writing thematic not worrying to much about an overall message

I then look at what I have got, try and work out a theme and then complete the missing lines - trying to tighten it up and convey some feeling

Most times I am happy that overall there is a meaning to me but many songs take on completely different meanings for me when some event happens later in my life - almost as if I had written it to a future me

Anyway I consider myself to be an average lyricist - not a Tone thats for sure - but then again I tend not to sweat too much about these things

On a personal point I really enjoy your lyrics and style but feel that you would have to sacrifice/stifle a melody to make them fit - I would seriously encourage you to try and write a melody first and then lyrics to see what happens

[Ramshackles]

On a personal point I really enjoy your lyrics and style but feel that you would have to sacrifice/stifle a melody to make them fit - I would seriously encourage you to try and write a melody first and then lyrics to see what happens

I'd encourage corsair just to post a melody, any melody, for once, finally! It would be nice to see you bring at least 1 of all these lyrics to fruition   

[Kafla]

Another thing severnsyn

Write part of your song - chords etc and the leave it - let it infuse in your mind for a week - see what twists and turns you think of in your mind without developing it officially any further - then play it again and see what happens

And yes I have written melody first but I often find I adapt it to the chords I want rather than orginal melody  

Have fun  

[mihkay]

Simple things to try are:

1. Put the chorus first. This was quite typical in the late 60's for pop songs. Eg. Bernadette by the Four Tops
2. Put the middle-8 as as an intro.  Do You Want to by Franz Ferdinand.
3. Have no chorus. This is more typical of a folk style but Neil Young's "Powderfinger" gives a more rocky edge to the style or Up the Junction by Squeeze.
I only deliberately change things into unconventional  modes when I'm trying to generate new ideas, but I usually go with what I like rather than trying to force a piece into any set structure.
I tend to work like Kafla, a phrase will catch my ear and I work with it. But  I usually fall into the conventional song structure unless there is compelling musical reason not to.

[Shylock]

I'd also add don't be afraid to use an A,A,A structure. It can be really interesting what comes out. Sometimes I find myself desperately trying to think of a B or C section and comprimising my initial idea just to "do something different" but you don't have to have different sections for the song to work.

"Walk on by" or Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues" are great examples of A,A,A structures and don't need a bridge to make them work - admittedly "Walk on by" has a beatiful hook