Mastering - is it worthwhile and does it enhance our mixes?

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Wicked Deeds

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« on: November 23, 2017, 06:29:02 PM »
Mastering - is it worthwhile and does it enhance our mixes?

https://soundcloud.com/wicked-deeds/the-act-of-betrayal-original

https://soundcloud.com/wicked-deeds/landrthe-act-of-betrayal

https://soundcloud.com/wicked-deeds/paul-vasey-the-act-of-betrayal-boydie-master

Mastering - is it worthwhile and does it enhance our mixes?

Ok,  I’m currently assembling a collection of 12 songs for an album that I will soon be releasing.  My first thought was that my original WAV files of the songs weren’t too shabby and so I was tempted to go with them.  That’s not really a very professional approach to presenting/advertising a new album.  With Christmas fast approaching, I have been on a tight budget and so decided to use LANDR to master my original songs.  They master based on algorithms and there has been several years of research that has gone into preparing the service that they offer.  I talked to our forum moderator Boydie about using this service and he then offered to mix a song that I had already acquired the LANDR master for; a song called “TheAct Of Betrayal.  He then returned the the newly mastered WAV file and I then spent quite some time, (and I am in no doubt, that Boydie has done the same) comparing the mixes.

I’d like to say that I think that LANDR did an excellent job of mastering ’The Act Of Betrayal.  However, I think that Boydie has brought a real personal touch to this song, which has resulted in greater clarity and therefore greater dynamics.   I will therefore include his version on my album “A Kiss Before The Winter”.

I’ve had a brief discussion with Boydie via email and we both think that this would make an interesting forum topic for discussion.  

thanks

Paul

https://soundcloud.com/wicked-deeds/the-act-of-betrayal-original

https://soundcloud.com/wicked-deeds/landrthe-act-of-betrayal

https://soundcloud.com/wicked-deeds/paul-vasey-the-act-of-betrayal-boydie-master
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 08:51:37 PM by Wicked Deeds »

Darren1664

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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2017, 08:05:37 PM »
Well I know very little of mixing or mastering but from listening to your links (and from hearing other tracks pre and post master) I certainly think it enhances the mix.

Whatever the magic is that masterers pull, it manages to really bring out key aspects of a song and makes me feel more in it, if that makes sense. Pre master I'm listening to a song and post master I'm in it, experiencing it. That's probably not a helpful point of view.

Boydie's done brilliant work and it's interesting that I feel listening to both that a similar approach was taken. I just feel, like you say, that Boydie's is more personal, and a little clearer. I don't really have a clue what I'm talking about but just relaying on what I am hearing.

I can certainly see as well how mastering can create some cohesion between songs on an album.

Interesting topic and I will interested to read some replies from the more knowledgable  :) I will likely learn something here....

Oh and has to be said, great track! Good luck with the album  :)

Darren

Oh and to add my own question (but not to sidetrack the topic) are the generic Garage band master settings of much use? Thanks :)

« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 08:09:28 PM by Darren1664 »

Wicked Deeds

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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2017, 08:21:22 PM »
Well I know very little of mixing or mastering but from listening to your links (and from hearing other tracks pre and post master) I certainly think it enhances the mix.

Whatever the magic is that masterers pull, it manages to really bring out key aspects of a song and makes me feel more in it, if that makes sense. Pre master I'm listening to a song and post master I'm in it, experiencing it.


That makes perfect sense to me Darren.  It quite eloquently expresses my thoughts about mastering.

As for GarageBand masters, I've never used them.  Mastering is something that' I have not really  embraced in the past.

Thanks for your reply.

Paul

Yodasdad

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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 08:46:22 PM »
Very useful post as I've been asking myself the value of mastering, or more specifically, at what point it becomes a worthwhile expense.

I'm planning to put a load of tracks on a cd for my family for christmas (I know, but some of them don't even have a computer let alone the internet) I don't think I could justify the cost for this purpose but if realising to the public, then I think it's worth it. Take yourself seriously to be taken seriously I guess.

I also agree that Boydie's is the master master.

Yodasdad

Skub

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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2017, 08:56:13 PM »
It can be difficult to compare tracks objectively when there is a volume difference between them. The mastering process usually gives a boost in this area and it's easy to let our ears tell us the louder version sounds better.

There was a marked difference between the original version and the landr version,then the real subtleties come into play when playing landr against Boydie. I do notice straightaway that Boydie has tamed the 'boomy,proximity' effect on your vocals,leaving them sounding clearer and mud free.

I don't know how much the landr stuff costs,but Boydie has never been hard to pay,nor has his finished master ever been anything other than an improvement.

montydog

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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 01:18:49 AM »
Hi

I spoke to a very experienced musician who was big in the 80's and lives in our village. When I started talking to him about releasing my music online the first thing he said to me was "Get it mastered - it will make all the difference". I think he is right. You only really notice the difference between a mastered and non mastered recording when you play the song on a compromised platform - ie anything other than a decent Hi-Fi system. Considering that nobody (except me it sometimes seems) listens to music on a quality Hi-Fi system, mastering is essential.

Boydie is a top chap who will give you incredible value for money. He masters almost all my songs and I would recommend him to anyone.

M


Neil C

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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2017, 07:49:10 AM »
Mastering is a key step and essential if an LP is to sounds professional and coherent.

I cheat and just put mine through Izotope's Ozone. Select a preset. Sometimes I change presets and may well go back to the mix and vary it. You can easily hear the difference and there is an increase in volume although I think I don't push that hard compared to others on Soundcloud.

From what I've read you can be mastering for different media too, i.e. a CD or MP3 etc.

I've just had a look at Ozone's website and there is an entry level offer to 30th Nov for $29, can't go wrong if you want to try https://www.izotope.com/en/products/master-and-deliver/ozone/ozone-elements.html
 :)
neil
songwriter of no repute..

crystalsuzy

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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2017, 09:41:04 AM »
This is a question that I ask as well  :o I've had a couple of my songs mastered by LANDR and it definitely sounded better, or was it just louder? And I only did the freebee offer :-[
But after listening to the three versions of your song Paul, there's no doubt that mastering is essential. Boydies master is definitely the best sounding track. It totally brings the song alive, so if one is going to put out an album or sell on line, I now realize that mastering is a must  :)
Great song Paul and good luck with your album :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 08:30:55 AM by crystalsuzy »

Ramshackles

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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2017, 09:59:34 AM »
Boydies version is better in my opinion...a little hard to compare since his is a good 2db louder or so.

A few years ago, Ronan Chris Murphy mastered our 'Bluebell Woods' EP:
https://soundcloud.com/ramshackles/sets/bluebell-woods-ep

My gut feeling is that an automated approach like LANDR would not have done nearly as good a job.
I do think mastering is important and that it is very important to separate it from mixing (and understand the difference between the two). When possible get a second pair of ears to do it.

In our case, I spent about a month mixing the EP. when I sent it to Ronan he pointed out a few technical details (IIRC) which I then corrected before he mastered.
A 'good' master IMO preserves the original mix while doing at least this:

- Normalising the volume between tracks (and adding loudness...in our case I had stated that I didnt want a 'smashed' sounding record, preferring to sacrifice some volume for preserving the dynamics).

- Minor EQ'ing and compression (maybe other techniques) in order to both create a coherent image across all the songs and help create an acceptable listening experience across all kinds of media... This is one of the toughest parts as you need to do this while preserving the original mix and intent!

The song 'first snow' turned out especially well after mastering imo...


I haven't had anything mastered since but also havent 'properly' recorded an EP/LP, concentrating more on just playing.

The only thing I would bear in mind is a good song sounds good regardless.
There are plenty of good reasons to get something mastered, but doing so in the hope it will add that 'something' which will get your music to a wider audience isn't one of them.


Boydie

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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2017, 02:05:24 PM »
Quote
A few years ago, Ronan Chris Murphy mastered our 'Bluebell Woods' EP

WOW!  :o I am a huge fan of Ronan Chris Murphy - I absolutely LOVE his approach to mixing and mastering and he has a great way of putting his concepts across.

Quote
This is one of the toughest parts as you need to do this while preserving the original mix and intent!

I completely agree with this


Thank you so much for the kind words and I am pleased my version has gone down so well. If it is helpful I will share my general approach to mastering...

I always carefully listen to the track and try to understand what the song/mix is trying to "communicate" - my job is then to choose a mastering approach that best supports and enhances the mix and the song

If possible I also talk to the "song owner" (either the writer, producer, mixer etc.) to understand their "vision" for what the end product should sound like (eg using RAM's example he would say he doesn't want it too squashed and would rather sacrifice volume for dynamics etc.)

I have purposely not developed a robotic process for mastering and I have no presets - I start from scratch with each master

Having said that I have developed a "chain" of plugins that I tend to use, which I can switch in and out depending on the approach I am taking

In the case of this mix I felt the mastering should focus on increasing the "energy" of the mix, pull out the vocal to enhance the "intimate" vocal in the mix (which involved removing some of the boominess in the original mix), add some clarity to the mix to help get some definition between the instruments, and subtly "smooth out" some of the spikeyness in the mix by reducing some peaks

There is obviously only so much that can be done with a Stereo master file - mixing a song using the original tracks would allow for much better mixing and mastering

Here is the approach I took and the plugins used for this master:

Waves SSL G Bus Compressor - Some very subtle compression to help glue everything together

Izotope Ozone - Detailed EQ shaping to remove any "mud", booms, and if necessary enhance certain features of the mix

Izotope Ozone - Exciter to add some SUBLTE excitement (light distortion) to specific frequency bands

Izotope Ozone - Multi-Band compression - this is where a master can be quickly ruined! I very carefully compress different frequency bands by different amounts to sculpt the sound

Izotope Ozone - Stereo Image - check stereo image and apply widening (or narrowing) of the stereo image of the mix - eg in this case I narrowed the lower frequencies to give a more "mono" low end to beef up the foundation of the mix, slightly narrowed the vocal to enhance the intimacy and then widened the upper mids/high to help with the clarity and separation of the mix. I also do my first test for mono compatibility at this point

Waves J37 Tape Saturation - I really like to use the J37 in a subtle way to add some "analogue warmth" to the mix

Izotope Ozone - Final EQ - I have another instance of Ozone near the end of the chain with an EQ to do any final EQ tweaks

Waves L1 Limiter - The final stage of my mastering is the limiting where I decide how "loud" the final mix should be. This is very much done "by ear" to achieve the most appropriate balance between achieving a commercial loudness but retaining the dynamics. This is VERY subjective and is done to support the song

Although this looks like a linear workflow it is most definitely not - I constantly jump back and forth between the different steps to achieve the right blend

The most useful thing I have learnt is doing "lots of very subtle" things rather than trying to make dramatic changes

I hope this helps shed light on my approach and I would be happy to answer any questions

As I am still learning my craft I offer VERY cheap rates to forum members

I charge £20 to master a song (with discounts for multiple songs  ;)) and I charge £75 to "mix and master" a song using your individual tracks (which will result in a much better finished product)
To check out my music please visit:

http://soundcloud.com/boydiemusic

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BoydieMusic

Cawproductions

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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 11:36:07 AM »
Hi Guys,

Just my 2 penneth worth....

I read somewhere that a good master will cut across all platforms, and all devices.

Heres what I have found out whilst I master tracks.

Online streaming platforms have lots of different mastering thresholds. If you dont get it right for that platform, your mix gets crushed or can sound quiet. Happened to me lots of times and I am still trying to get it right.
CD masters totally different threshold again.

As Boydie will prob agree, putting a mix through certain limiters on the final stage will defo change the dynamics and things pop out that you couldn't hear before,.

I now record and mix with the a limiter on the Stereo bus and switch it in and out as I mix. Not the old school way but as DAWs have progressed it can be done. That way you can go back and fix things as you go and not at the end. My whole work flow is almost all in the box.

As for mastering an album, Definitely worth it, the mastering process will match the Level Tone and feel of all the tracks so they play nice together.

Good metering is essential, phase, corrolation, LUFS, and dynamic range.

Everyday is a school day.

Thanks for looking
Andy
Cawproductions



Boydie

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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2017, 12:40:01 PM »
Quote
As Boydie will prob agree, putting a mix through certain limiters on the final stage will defo change the dynamics and things pop out that you couldn't hear before,.

I now record and mix with the a limiter on the Stereo bus and switch it in and out as I mix. Not the old school way but as DAWs have progressed it can be done. That way you can go back and fix things as you go and not at the end. My whole work flow is almost all in the box.

Definitely agree

I have spoken before about the blurring lines between recording/tracking, editing, producing, mixing and mastering

I know many "old schoolers" do not like this and still do things like exporting a stereo mix to then re-import to master

I completely agree about embracing change and I will often mix whilst recording, produce whilst mixing and mix whilst mastering - that is the benefit of the power of todays computers so embrace it!!!
To check out my music please visit:

http://soundcloud.com/boydiemusic

Twitter: https://twitter.com/BoydieMusic

Martinswede

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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2017, 05:57:22 PM »
Hi!
I guess I got a bit late to this thread, the first two example links are inactive.

Just for the fun of it I read the Wikipedia article concerning mastering but it got me no wiser.
Your explanation was more understandable Boydie.
Thanks