[LisaMoore]

Hi Guys ,

Wondering if anyone out there can help. An opportunity has come up to potentially write as a lyricist for a children’s  you tube channel .  Effectively the company that runs the channel would hold all rights on any of my written works They use. They also do not credit the writers or artistic people they use. I had anticipated this to be the case.   They have shown some interest in my work and asking how much I would charge per song and how many I could produce in a month ?

I still have some serious thinking to do but has anyone out there worked in this way and any ideas on what I should be charging . Realistically , I could probably produce 10 children’s songs of quality per month. It is a pre-school channel so there aren’t any complex arrangements and I would just be submitting lyrics. I could say 20 but that would be 20 fairly rubbish songs . I have just got no idea what to charge and nervous of putting the ball back in their court for fear of sounding unprofessional. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers guys. Lisa

[Neil C]

Like beauty its in the eyyebof the beholder, and down to negotiations.

You could work out from an hourly rate, or how much you need? Abd how much do you think you are worth?

Do youbknow how many they need for the series. 10 to 20 per month sound doable, i cant imagine they are long or complex?

Have they a budget and gave they done this before?

Good luck
Neil

[shadowfax]

How much do you think they're worth?..what makes it worthwhile for you?,
I would reckon 1000GBP is the minimum per song (considering that they take all rights from you)..you gotta be prepared to walk away, do not sell yourself cheap!!

[tone]

Is that a typo Kev?

Lisa stated the job is for a youtube channel. They'll be lucky to make £1000 in revenue from that channel per month, let alone have that kind of budget for content.

I'd flat out ask them what their budget is. That's your point to negotiate either more money or less work for the offering. It all depends on how much money the channel is making, and whether your work will be used in any other commercial setting. Make sure to have a written agreement between you and the channel operators, stating exactly the fee to be paid, what's being delivered, and how it's being used.

Good luck.

[shadowfax]

Not a typo Tone..if there is no money in it there's no point in doing it, specially as the buyers want total rights for evermore...

[Paulski]

I like Tone's advice - find out what their budget is.
That way you don't leave anything on the table, and they don't get sticker-shock.

Paul

[Jackdaw]

Dear Lisa.
Just to say good luck with this.
AND
If you need any help whatsover re words or lyrics or songs or advice I am available.... Free of charge!!!

Regards
Carl Anthony

Ps...
The Children of today are Our future and tomorrows :-)

[Boydie]

I am with TONE as well here

If you ask with confidence it is not "unprofessional" to politely ask what their budget is for the songs

You have 2 choices - charge a set price per lyric or use an "hourly rate"

They will definitely NOT have a budget of £1,000 per lyric

How long does it take you to write a song and what hourly rate would YOU be happy with?

There is also the other "benefits" to consider - e.g. If you haven't got a strong "track record" some paid work as a lyricist may be good for the CV

If I had to take a stab in the dark I think you will be looking at around £20 - £40 ish per lyric if they are short children's songs for a YouTube channel

[tone]

One other approach you could take would be to negotiate a % of ad revenue for each video containing your material. That way, should one of the videos go viral, you'll be getting a cut of some decent money in lieu of royalties. Also, it's motivation to keep your game strong...

[The S]

Hmm, not an easy one but I have to say I'm with Shadow here.

The few times I've sold (short) pieces of music for commercial use I must confess Shadow is quite close to reality in his estimation of price. But that was a short piece of music, here we're talking about a complete lyric to a song. From what I understand they're not even going to give you credit for what you've created so... You'll be giving away your name, your work, your words, your creation. You'll be giving away the right to future income. You'll be giving away the right to pitch it further. You'll have no control of how successful it might be. How spread out over social media it will be. No control over how long it will be used. Weeks? Months? Years?

So standard deal is; The longer it runs, the more you charge. A wider spread across several media platforms, the more you charge. The company should have a plan for all of this and it should be in a contract for you to read. Lets say they intend for it to go on for 6 months. You calculate your price off of that timeline and then all other factors I've mentioned above. If it along the way should be decided it will go beyond the original timeline and they want to continue using your creation, you renegotiate.

Now, maybe this company have or have not that kind of money, but if you ask me I think they do, and sincerely if they don't have the money they shouldn't go for this kind of deal in the first place, nor should you. If there's no budget to talk about, well, there's the reason for royalties!!! So IMHO, I'd try to settle for some sort of royalty deal and get due credit as is the standard case (usually). Then you're also able to put it on your CV.  

These kind of deals are hard to make because they're hard to calculate and get right. As always, I'd recommend anyone to use help of a professional if possible. You're not the first to make a deal nor the first to use help. So if you look around and do some digging you'll find someone who can help you out I'm sure. Unless it's a friend, I'm also afraid they'll charge you for it.

Just don't fall into the old trap of telling yourself, but what if this is my big break?, and make a crap deal because of it. Too many how gone down that road before you.

Best of luck,

Peter

[tone]

PS I don't know if this helps, but I write for a living. Corporate websites, brochures, business materials etc. I've done a couple of video scripts too though.

As an experienced copywriter (7 years), I charge £35 per hour (self employed. Agency rates are much higher) for web pages. Other projects vary, but not by much, unless it's for something crucial like a brand name or slogan, in which case I charge by the job, not the hour. My hourly rate includes 2 rounds of revisions should the client request them, but doesn't cover changes to the brief or any additional requests.

[tone]

The few times I've sold (short) pieces of music for commercial use I must confess Shadow is quite close to reality in his estimation of price.

This is true, but a lyric is not a finished piece of music. It doesn't have to factor in equipment costs, production time and costs, possible studio hire, and so on. Not to mention commercial music production is generally considered to be a much higher ticket skill than writing words alone.

Also, I bet the music you sold was bought by a production company? People with access to large media groups and big music budgets. Youtube is not a high dollar platform. You may *think* lyrics are worth £1k per song, but you absolutely won't get that for online use. If the songs are going to be used in traditional broadcast media, then the price will rise significantly, but I'm still not sure you'll get anywhere near £1k per short lyric.

[Jackdaw]

Lisa Moore seems to be silent?
She does not appear to be online or even respond to any of this Forum's messages or advice???

Hmmm?
I myself find that a little strange.
Especially when she started off with a kinda message... "Hi guys ... can you help" etc etc?

Jackdaw1888

[The S]

I hear you Tone!

I also suspect you might know a lot more than I do about youtube channels and probably also the written word outside of lyrics and how to get paid for it. So I listen and read what you say carefully, because it is interesting and I want to know more about it.

Me, I only know about the written word from a songwriting perspective, meaning lyrics. And in that environment words and music usually get equally 50% each after publishing has got their share. Of course this is always negotiable but that's usually where you start. In the music biz you don't sell your work, you get royalties. If you do, like mentioned in my earlier post, it's usually for commercial use and then you get paid up front after, also mentioned in earlier post, various factors are taken into consideration.

I also get 100% that they probably never will go for such a deal I'm proposing. I can only speak for myself, but me personally, I'd never settle for the deal they offered, I'd rather skip it entirely then. It just seems to be a lot of work you won't get paid nor credit for.

By nature I'm just always skeptical when a company want to strip you of your rights and also don't want to cash up?!?!!

But like I said, I don't know exactly how it works outside of the music business. I'm afraid it could be I'm just an old fart with old thinking ways!?!  

Damn it, now I'm tired and need to take my afternoon nap!!!  

Cheers,

Peter

Sidenote: Yeah, it seems we lost Lisa after post 1. Not the first, not the last. Hopefully she'll stick around though! 

[Boydie]

Lisa Moore seems to be silent?
She does not appear to be online or even respond to any of this Forum's messages or advice???

Hmmm?
I myself find that a little strange.

I would be careful to judge people on their first post - she may have a busy life and did not plan to "check in" as to be fair it is actually quite rare to get the quality of responses that you guys have already given so quickly - I know many forums where this kind of request from a new member would simply get ignored

The fact that not only are there a range of intelligent responses from experienced people but it has also sparked a bit of a discussion, which is great for everyone and the forum - so great job guys!!  

I'd never settle for the deal they offered, I'd rather skip it entirely then. It just seems to be a lot of work you won't get paid nor credit for.

I think that is part of the problem - they haven't offered ANY deal yet - only that they want a complete "buy out", which is fair enough for the type of use - as long as the writer is happy that they can't use the lyrics for anything else, will not see any future "back end" income, and the price is right of course

Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay and what someone is will to take for it

The onus is on either the seller to name their price or the purchaser to make an offer - only then can a negotiation or deal be made

There appears to be no money offer from the purchaser (or indication of budget) yet and the seller is unsure of the price so there is an awkward stalemate - made even more awkward by the unusual deal (I agree with others that a normal royalty deal would make more sense - but I actually think would work out worse for the writer in this case based on the proposed use) and the fact that it is very difficult to make a "like for like" comparison

It is not like you are selling a pencil so you can look up how much pencils usually sell for - selling just lyrics for YouTube use is pretty unusual and I doubt you will find a "like for like" comparison

If it were me - to break the stalemate I would ask (professionally and politely) what their budget is or what they expect to pay on a per song basis

Only then can you decide to take the opportunity or leave it

Alternatively, you could come up with your own figure per song based on the time, effort or "value" you place on the lyric

If it took you an hour to write the lyrics to one song you could use TONE's guideline of £35 to reward your effort/time OR you could take an estimate of how much you "value" the lyric as a product, which is where SHADOWFAX and THE S are coming from with their £1,000 per lyric valuation

So based on the assumption it takes you an hour to write a short children's lyric (which I would say is fair) we have narrowed it down to between £35 and £1,000 per lyric

Based on your estimate of 10 songs per month you need to decide whether to make them an offer £350 or £10,000 per month and whether either sum is:
A) acceptable to you - I am guessing the £10k is but would £350 per month extra income from writing some lyrics be?
B) acceptable to them - I do not think they would have anywhere near £10k for 10 short children's lyrics so you need to consider whether this offer would ruin any future chances - you would look a little silly initially pitching at £10k and then if they say no dropping to £350!!!!!

If you are willing to walk away from the deal you could risk chancing your arm and pitching high but if this is a new/rare opportunity for you to earn some money from something you love doing (and earning a bit of exposure, kudos, validation and something for the CV along the way) then a "sell your soul" deal for a relatively small amount may be better than nothing

I am afraid the other party has the upper hand (ie. The best alternative to a negotiated agreement) as I am sure they can find another lyricist willing to do this "work for hire" at a rate much less than £1,000 per song on sites like FIVRR - or if they advertised here I am sure many would jump at the chance

It is not "fair" and may be exploiting talents - but it is the music "business" and a free (global) market place