[shadowfax]

As an American who has personally been affected by gun violence, who hates guns and violence, I've given up hope that things will ever change here, even if the laws do. There are too many already out there. It's just part of life.

The only thing we can do to combat violence is by treating each other with kindness. I know it's not enough, but it's all we got.

You could move to the UK where guns are not allowed and still be affected by gun crime...

[Sing4me88]

Pops - Indeed, the UK are every bit as imperialist and (neo)colonist as the US, and being Irish I can attest to that  

Shadow - pretty skewed reading of history there but that is one perspective. Another is that rather than being a benign world policeman intent on bringing 'democracy' and 'peace' to the world the US involves itself elsewhere only where THEIR OWN strategic interest is threatened or necessitates intervention. Hence why, in contrast to the cases you cite, there was no intervention to stop genocide in Rwanda, there was no intervention to stop ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, there was/is no intervention to stop the destruction of the Kurds and why it was US guns that plunged much of Central America into the deaths of iron fist rule by various military juntas. And that's before we get to the not insignificant matter of US guns committing war crimes abroad in places like Vietnam, Cambodia and Iraq....

Sorry to be so negative this early in the morning but for what it's worth I think the whole thing is an issue of economics. Guns are big business and make a lot of people rich. Just as war, disease and crime are all profitable for those prepared to enrich themselves on the back of other people's misery so too is gun crime. While that remains the case there'll always be pretty lax control I reckon....

[shadowfax]

Pops - Indeed, the UK are every bit as imperialist and (neo)colonist as the US, and being Irish I can attest to that  

Shadow - pretty skewed reading of history there but that is one perspective. Another is that rather than being a benign world policeman intent on bringing 'democracy' and 'peace' to the world the US involves itself elsewhere only where THEIR OWN strategic interest is threatened or necessitates intervention. Hence why, in contrast to the cases you cite, there was no intervention to stop genocide in Rwanda, there was no intervention to stop ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, there was/is no intervention to stop the destruction of the Kurds and why it was US guns that plunged much of Central America into the deaths of iron fist rule by various military juntas. And that's before we get to the not insignificant matter of US guns committing war crimes abroad in places like Vietnam, Cambodia and Iraq....

Sorry to be so negative this early in the morning but for what it's worth I think the whole thing is an issue of economics. Guns are big business and make a lot of people rich. Just as war, disease and crime are all profitable for those prepared to enrich themselves on the back of other people's misery so too is gun crime. While that remains the case there'll always be pretty lax control I reckon....

It's perfectly natural to look after your own interests my friend..we all do it..
and guns do not commit war crimes..people do!!
if they didn't have guns they'd do it with machetes or whatever..
the USA is not the only supplier of guns...
the AK 47 is a favourite in the places you mention...
I don't know where you live but if you live in Europe your living in peace under the umbrella of NATO which would not exist without America..

people all over the World seem intent on killing others for various reasons..usually religion, America can not be expected to save or defend everybody, maybe people should be more tolerant of each other and actually stop fighting!!

Peace, Kevin

[Sing4me88]

But isn't the issue the barefaced lies involved in 'looking after your own interests' and telling the world that you are actually promoting peace/justice/democracy/whatever trendy term placates neo-cons and liberals alike??? The CIA sponsored coup in Chile is the case par excellence - it was about bringing down a socialist regime that could provide a viable alternative to US driven and promoted capitalism that was at the crux of the matter not any security threat, yet the whole affair was framed as some sort of salvation of peace and democracy from the alleged evils of communism.

Indeed, it doesn't take a gun to commit war crimes. In many cases the male body is suffice as the many horrific cases of war time rape prove.

NATO are every bit as much of an imperialist entity as you can get - no more or less so than the Germans and Soviets you excoriated earlier. Are you saying they are better or more acceptable (politically, morally, socially???) than the aforementioned because they are largely Western backed or premised on a particular ideology (ie Western capitalism and neo-imperialism)?

Finally, the notion that Europe is at 'peace' is in fact open to question. How exactly do you define 'peace'? The absence of open violence or the absence of the structural causes of violence? If the latter, then surely it is fickle to argue that a Europe so riven with many forms of inequality ingrained in various structures is in fact at 'peace'?

[PaulAds]

I honestly believe America is in big trouble...perhaps even more so at home than abroad. And that’s saying something. The collapse of an empire. More Civil unrest seems certain unless there are big changes. It’s tragic to see such a great country falling apart.

And it didn’t just start in January  

[shadowfax]

But isn't the issue the barefaced lies involved in 'looking after your own interests' and telling the world that you are actually promoting peace/justice/democracy/whatever trendy term placates neo-cons and liberals alike??? The CIA sponsored coup in Chile is the case par excellence - it was about bringing down a socialist regime that could provide a viable alternative to US driven and promoted capitalism that was at the crux of the matter not any security threat, yet the whole affair was framed as some sort of salvation of peace and democracy from the alleged evils of communism.

Indeed, it doesn't take a gun to commit war crimes. In many cases the male body is suffice as the many horrific cases of war time rape prove.

NATO are every bit an imperialist entity - no more or less so that the Germans and Soviets you excoriated earlier. Are you saying they are better r more acceptable (politically, morally, socially???) than the aforementioned because they are largely Western backed?

Finally, the notion that Europe is at 'peace' is in fact open to question. How exactly do you define 'peace'? The absence of open violence or the absence of the structural causes of violence? If the latter, then surely it is fickle to argue that a Europe so riven with many forms of inequality ingrained in various structures is in fact at 'peace'?

your clearly anti American so further discussion is futile...
if you need to define actual peace as opposed to actual destructive war then you've lost me..

Peace, Kevin

[shadowfax]

I honestly believe America is in big trouble...perhaps even more so at home than abroad. And that’s saying something. The collapse of an empire. More Civil unrest seems certain unless there are big changes. It’s tragic to see such a great country falling apart.

And it didn’t just start in January  

America and the whole of Europe is in trouble my friend...neo liberal extremists are hell bent on destroying our culture..
civil unrest is not far away....

Peace, Kevin

[Sing4me88]

your clearly anti American so further discussion is futile...
if you need to define actual peace as opposed to actual destructive war then you've lost me..

Peace, Kevin
[/quote]

In the words of Bob Dylan 'don't criticise what you don't understand'...   

I'm not anti-American unless you call being opposed to rapacious Western capitalism and neo-colonialism anti-American? I'm just as happy and willing to lay the boot into the Brits, Belgians, French, Russians etc on this front too. Also, people have made pretty prominent and lucrative careers out of discussing and debating what 'peace' means - political scientists, criminologists, anthropologists, sociologists etc.

[jacksimmons]

Maybe compromise and ban Americans from using guns abroad?

that would mean Europe would be under the thumb of Russia or the Germans, South Korea would under the thumb of North Korea, Asia would under the thumb of Japan except China would've invaded Japan by now in revenge for the rape of Nanking etc..etc...no culture is perfect but imagine if the Japanese were the world superpower, they'd still be using Asian females as sex slaves...imagine if Germany was the worlds superpower, there would be no Jews/invalids/Africans/Arabs left alive,
I've been to Russia several times and I live in a country that suffered under communism so I dare not even try to imagine what Europe/England would be like under Russia....
the fact that the USA can use guns abroad is why we have peace in Europe,

individuals slaughtering people around the world for their own mentally unstable reasons is another matter and it isn't just Americans that do this..
I'm not anti or pro America but I can imagine a world without America (love them or loathe them) and I don't fancy it,
Guns are...not available in Europe but it hasn't stopped a certain culture from machine gunning people at concerts, in offices etc..etc...

Peace, Kevin

Amen to that

[redrhodie]

As an American who has personally been affected by gun violence, who hates guns and violence, I've given up hope that things will ever change here, even if the laws do. There are too many already out there. It's just part of life.

The only thing we can do to combat violence is by treating each other with kindness. I know it's not enough, but it's all we got.

You could move to the UK where guns are not allowed and still be affected by gun crime...

Twice? I think it's statistically unlikely. Akin to getting struck by lightning. I've had 2 incidents here. So far.

But in any case, my belief that there is no solution to violence but love and kindness still stands. The guns are here to stay. Mental illness is here to stay. I don't know the impact treating people with kindness will have, but it's all I got.

[PaulAds]

Maybe compromise and ban Americans from using guns abroad?

that would mean Europe would be under the thumb of Russia or the Germans, South Korea would under the thumb of North Korea, Asia would under the thumb of Japan except China would've invaded Japan by now in revenge for the rape of Nanking etc..etc...no culture is perfect but imagine if the Japanese were the world superpower, they'd still be using Asian females as sex slaves...imagine if Germany was the worlds superpower, there would be no Jews/invalids/Africans/Arabs left alive,
I've been to Russia several times and I live in a country that suffered under communism so I dare not even try to imagine what Europe/England would be like under Russia....
the fact that the USA can use guns abroad is why we have peace in Europe

Russia defeated Germany in WW2....and America saw it as a business opportunity and little else...and that seems to be the only reason why they ever get involved in anything.

Not many Americans with guns turn up in countries who have got nowt.